Justine stands up for FWR in The Times

R0wantrees - And it IS important. And lucrative.

Don't doubt that if there was a potential financial loss for MN, the 'debate' would be shut down.

And that's not a criticism of MNHQ, it's business.

MN is hugely influential www.mumsnet.com/info/influencers

MN has run numerous successful public campaigns on issues primarily concerning women. They won't run a campaign apposing self ID because it could result in negative publicity and financial loss.

The ideal situation for MN is what they're doing now. That's what a very publically visible and influential business does if they have any sense.

I like MNHQ. I respect the owners and their business. I don't feel I have any 'say' in how it is run (lots of MNetters think differently). I don't have to be here, it would be no loss to MN if I wasn't.

So in being here, I am accepting their practices, views and the decisions they make.

But I can't believe that any company inviting Paris Lees as a guest at their blogfest has the interest of feminists or women in mind. Particularly as SO many posters objected and were basically told that they could like it or leave. Which is true (and I agree with MNHQ stance on complaints about how the site is run, it's free. We don't have to be here. It isn't 'our safe space' or any space that we should feel a sense of ownership over. We don't.)

But to now suggest MN is some bastion of womens rights is just inaccurate.

On an individual basis in terms of staff they may share some views, but as a business, they are motivated by money and publicity (which raises money) - as any business has to be.

What Justine Roberts said yesterday on the radio was:

"I think the problem with this is that the trans lobby have confused an issue about people quite rightfully sticking up for the idea of hard won women's rights around....(interrupted but previously JR gave women's refuge and rape counselling as examples)

The upshot of the change to the legislation that's been asked for around self-identity, is that you are putting women, including transgender women quite frankly in vulnerable positions potentially.
We need to be able to discuss if we are changing legislation, and for very good reasons because I am totally in favour of recognition, equality and fair treatment of all individuals and letting them live how they live.
But we need to be able to discuss these competing rights and it needs to not just be shut down....and I'm afraid and to be honest India you've got to see the other point of view, you can't just plough on with the [position] 'our issue is the only important one''

I agree there is a very strong business case for supporting women in this.

Of course, my heart wants MNHQ to understand and be on the right side of fairness and justice too.
And I am certain that at least some of the mods definitely are. And I think possibly some are not quite as much. But it doesn't matter so much really.

Pragmatism dictates that I will be satisfied with the knowledge that women have ENORMOUS purchasing power and we can make or break political parties with our votes.

And we can do all that whilst silenced. The savvy players in politics and advertising and commerce will want to engage with and court us before we've been driven to organise entirely underground, where we may come up with a few unwelcome surprises.

MN hasn't taken any kind of stand - they've made some excellent business decisions to make more money. Which is their business.

What a coincidence that very shortly before the article was published, FWR was muted. So when the article comes out, and it's confirmed that FWR will go back into active, posters are so grateful that MNHQ is 'supporting them' that they remove adblockers (previously complained about by MN owners) and there are threads about how many purchases are made via MN.

Which makes MN more money.

No advertisers were said to have pulled out, just that they'd been 'pressured'. Even if any advertisers had pulled out, the increased revenue from the article and the apparent 'turnaround' in muting FWR would exceed any loss.

Plus, the muting and reinstating has got lots of people agreeing to essentially 'behave better' around the trans/self ID 'debate' for fear of losing it. Wins all over the place for MNHQ.

Lets not forget that in 2016 Paris Lees was invited as a guest speaker to MN blogfest which many MNetters were opposed to as it was felt that a public debate should be supported but that there are numerous transwomen (but less famous and likely to attract attention) who do not seem to hold such anti-feminist views. You can see the thread and MNHQ responses below.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2775504-Why-is-Paris-Lees-speaking-at-Mumsnet-and-are-MN-seeking-Spartacus-tees?pg=19&order=

So lets not see this as anything other than a very shrewd business decision. MNHQ takes no side in this, they are a multi-million pound business for a reason and will make more money from this article.

And all power to them. I think it's brilliant business strategy, but I won't get teary eyed thinking it's anything other than that.

Very well said James Kirkup!

[[https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/if-mumsnet-can-stand-up-for-free-speech-why-cant-mps/]]

Call to MPs to step up and for Justine and MNHQ from James Kirkup at The Spectator!

Another new user of Mumsnet and de-lurking to say Thank You! To Justine and MNHQ for standing up for women and allowing debate to happen here.

Amazing! Thank you Justine and MNHQ

I am happy to see the comments are overwhelmingly pro-Mumsnet. The few that are critical have very few recommendations, too.

Keep up the good fight, The Times and Mumsnet.

Well, I guess the comments reflect Times readership who will tend to be educated, non-extremist grownups.

Agreed about the comments under the Times article.
There's a real range of discussions going on with people asking questions and commenting. I've just had a read of them and they're great. And many evidently not Mumsnetters!

miri1985 , the replies under the recent Times articles are worth reading.

my Grandma used to say, 'why spoil a good story with the truth?'

Clearly truth is subjective and changeable, or some pomo shit like that.

Absolutely brilliant news thank you

Interestingly, some of the accounts that were calling for boycotts a few days ago are now suggesting its outrageous that that Justine has suggested there is any boycotting campaign! But stories move very quickly over a couple of days in some corners of twitterland...

Was curious what the general online reaction to this has been so looked up mumsnet on twitter. Certain people are absolutely vilifying the site for any of the very few comments that they deem to be "*phobic" apparently thats what mumsnet is all about and decrying the lack of moderation etc. threatening advertisers

None of them seem to see the irony of using twitter to post these revelations which has actual hate, no moderation etc. Haven't seen any of them threaten twitters advertisers or propose a boycott of the platform etc

A few weeks ago we were nothing but bored, uneducated Mums who needed to be told our place and now suddenly we must be stopped through any means

whoputthecatout I have just spent a week away and its like I've missed months.
Loved having no internet, but glad I'm back.

Spending power ! ha ha ha

Been away and only just caught up with how life has moved on.

Bravo Justine and Mumsnet HQ. And many thanks.

TAs have bitten off more than they can chew this time.

Great job, Justine! I'm so happy to see this.

Also, think about which companies advertise on Mumsnet. How many TRAs regularly purchase from those companies? Now, how many mums do? There are more potential buyers on Mumnset alone than there are trans people total in the UK, and that's before you exclude the reasonable trans people who'd ignore any attempt at a boycott.

We have the numerical advantage and it's about time that was recognized.

Just realized as I finished pg 1 that there are 9 pgs. Although I am being unMNy, I am posting before I finish RTFT, so that it's not a couple hours (plus distractions) before I add my many thanks to Justine and all of MNHQ.

You are all fabulous!! and and/or , whichever you may fancy. Justine, you are incredibly brave and one brilliant woman. More

Thank you Justine, Mumsnet, Andrew Gilligan, Janice Turner, and The Times. My AdBocker's now de-activated for both sites.

Hurrah for Justine and the lovely Mumsnet team!!!! (the last one is teetotal in case any of you are pregnant/breastfeeding)

@CircleSquareCircleSquare top idea! We really do have a lot of spending power as a group.

LOL notCis