Slide show on "How to Deal with TERFs"

Did anyone happen to get a download/archive/copy of the slideshare referenced in this thread (now deleted). Message me if so!

In yesterday's thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237230-NUS-Conference-breaks-down-after-the-UK-Border-Force-Arrive

@TerfinUSA commented,
"The graduates of this nonsense are the ones that go on to become Mumsnet interns."

This is the thread which prompted the indignation of a former Mumsnet Intern.

There are much wider issues surrounding some of those with influence within the NUS beyond the 'men & non-men' toilets.

I've copied over my post this morning from 'Hampstead Women's pool' because wider context is important in understanding current activism and considering some of the consequences of it...

These threads are useful though so despite Tut's intentions... there is pertinent discussion here about how organisations are reluctant to use Equality Act single-sex legislation that exists (for now at least!) and there may well be new browsers to the board.

This week Pink News led with a slightly misleading headline, 'Primark investigating after trans woman ‘refused entry’ to women’s changing room'
(not for the first time of course, remember, their scoop, 'Anti-trans activists hit out at ‘parasitic’ trans people at event in Parliament') -
at some point, there does need to be consideration of the impact these have in fuelling fears within LGBT+ community

As the body of the article shows, it seems by the 'friend's' public twitter complaint that a trans woman was asked for id (which she had) before going into the female changing rooms. The asking for id, being transphobic.
The friend is an active member of Oxford LGBT
As Pink News have highlighted, Primark were found guilty earlier this year for discriminating on the basis of gender identity against their employee.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/18/primark-investigating-after-trans-woman-refused-entry-to-womens-changing-room/

This was being discussed as there are (like women only swim sessions) conflicting issues... & the reasons why women and girls need safe spaces is often ignored or dismissed.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225459-Primark-Coventry-challenged-for-asking-trans-woman-for-ID-before-allowing-entry-to-female-changing-rooms

This discussion was rather overshadowed by EH's data breech and the consequences of this.

It is though worth linking to the thread which so incensed EH (previously NUS LGBT) was with regards a presentation/workshop/ instructions? on 'How to deal with Terfs' given at NUS Women's by a Trans Rights rep and Women's rep.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3222263-Slide-show-on-How-to-Deal-with-TERFs
The slideshow and 'recommended' reading is very concerning.
EH's reaction at the time seemed due to her closeness to the Oxford based NUS Women's rep who had published the slides although of course the long standing commitment to her beliefs is well known.

There are different types of activism... and as Helen Lewis in The New Statesman commented yesterday,

The Wolf affair also demonstrates another alarming phenomenon: the left getting high on its own supply of self-righteousness. “Some feminists have a different conception of gender to me” gets smudged into “some feminists talk about me in ways that I find offensive” and on to “some feminists are basically Hitler, trying to eradicate people like me”.

Once you reach the last statement, then of course you can slap a woman and still think of yourself as a good person. She wants to kill you; a mere punch is self-defence. (I’m not exaggerating about the language. The Edinburgh branch of Action for Trans Health tweeted the day after the attack: “Punching TERFs is the same as punching Nazis. Fascism must be smashed with the greatest violence to ensure our collective liberation from it.”

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/04/madness-our-gender-debate-where-feminists-defend-slapping-60-year-old

I think the chronology is something like
Got internship
Gained access to all user details
Disapproved of gc posters as 'mostly transphobic'
Took surreptitious screen grabs over several months
Emailed? screen grabs out of mnhq systems into her private accounts
Made mnhq friends with similar views who reported posts
Left mn
Bided time
Saw Justine's article in the Times about free speech
Got cross
Decided to tell everyone that she had 'evidence' of MN 'transphobia' and would bravely torch her career (see the screen grab above) to bring us all this evidence

Which turned out to be illegal data breaches and her thoughts about a chat she once had with Justine.

Then
Shitstorm
Police and ICO
Fauxpology

so are you saying she knew in advance that she was willingly fucking up her career ans references? How odd. What is her latest stance? Where was the apology? (was there one?) I was out all day yesterday and today and have lost track.

No Flomper, the chronology is wrong

that post from EH was prior to her posting the screenshots. April 15th.
That post - (it was my screengrab there) - was her announcing her intent to 'do what you gotta do'

And then she did.

not very sincere.

Which thread was the supposed apology on? I lost track.

sorry, here. I presume this was after she apologised? I didn't see the apology on here though so it could have been earlier? Stull, bit v sincere.
twitter.com/ValerianaOlmos/status/987025978722570240?s=19

Where did she retract it?

@Flomper retracted?

have you all seen EH's retracted apology? astounding.

EH had already collected MN data during her internship and, from reading her now deleted blog she was angered by the Times article. The focus really needs to be less on individuals but on how wide-spread such an ideology/activism has become. The slide show is appalling, the 'recommended reading' even more so since it (& similar docs) have clearly being absorbed / believed and used widely as justification for a great deal of harm.
'a really good guide that outlines common TERF arguments"
theterfs.com

Important to be aware that the concerns raised on this thread about the presentation at NUS Women's 18 'How to Deal with TERFS' prompted EH's publication of data collected over the 6 month internship.
Also important to be aware of possible links to activism associated with conviction of T. Wolf for assault at Speaker's Corner.
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/if-mumsnet-can-stand-up-for-free-speech-why-cant-mps/

Dear MNHQ

I'm very grateful for the commitment to free speech you've publicly taken, and for Justine's courage this week.

A former disgruntled employee of MN is writing on Twitter about the 'transphobia' of MN staff, and calling you TERFs. She is showing a great deal of bias and intolerance towards women with feminist views, this may well be her honest opinion, which is no big deal I suppose, since she is no longer an employee.

At least, it isn't an issue until she calls a shout out to her
'friends who still work at MN' to report and take down posts by 'transphobic scum', by which she appears to be referring to any poster objecting to being called TERF by her friend.

Regardless of the personal views of the MNHQ staff, who should be as free to hold their own views as I am mine, I am disturbed that there may be a small contingent of employees who are invested in unfair moderation and will not be applying fair-handed principles, at least if the claims of this ex-employee are credible.

Can you please give posters some reassurance that the difficult job of fair-handed moderation isn't being abused by the 'friends' of ex-employees who are 'reporting it all' and taking down posts because any gender criticism means the poster is 'transphobic scum'?

Thank you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225517-The-MNHQ-Moderation-team
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3226060-The-MNHQ-Moderation-Team-Thread-2

SecretPotplant

Oops username fail! That was me.

Thanks bewilderness. It’s not quite as gross as it sounds, because we believe that it’s hidden under the form of bread and wine, but yes, many of us do believe that.

End of derail!

This is OT, but I grind my teeth every time I see a poster I normally agree with, @bewilderness, liken ‘trans women are women’ to transubstantiation as ‘a belief nobody actually believes’.

Thanks for that. It never occurred to me that people actually believed they were eating human flesh and blood rather than a symbol when they took communion.
I will never say it is a belief no one believes again.

Hi unassumingwolf

I wanted to answer earlier but couldn't because I was at work. So here goes.

1) If trans women no longer identify as a man isn't that a powerful message for feminism (they have essentially have essentially relinquished their patriarchal power and privilege) ?

No. Witness the way some males who identify as female have behaved - presuming to speak for women, tell women what they're allowed to think, taking women's allocated places in politics and sport etc. Now think of how many transmen there are bullying and usurping men. You'll find that TIFs are far less prominent than TIMs. The patriarchy is still very much at play.

2) As feminism is about equality - does reinforcing gender stereotypes about men and women act to our detriment? The gender system oppresses us all?

Trans ideology is all about reinforcing gender stereotypes.

TRAs argue that 'woman' has historically been defined by a combination of biological and social elements. That is true to a point. But if a male is viewed as a woman, that can only be the 'social' definition of a woman, not the biological one. That means it's bolstering certain social stereotypes about what a woman is - reinforcing gender.

3) As feminists are a group in society that have to fight for their voices to be heard, do we not share a common cause with transwomen in representing their rights?

Most rights women are fighting for are ultimately rooted in biology, e.g. access to abortion, maternity leave, freedom from FGM, sexual exploitation etc. In some cases TRA demands conflict with women's right to safety, privacy, and representation.

4) If there is an issue with trans women taking the spaces of cis women in women only panels or something, could we not make them proportionately representative of the population? For example on a panel of 10 women, having one spot for a transwoman and 9 for women. would this make things better?

I suspect people with genuine sexual dysphoria are far rarer than that. The trans 'umbrella' has been extended to cover transvestites, fetishists and other kinds of gender non-conformity. No, I wouldn't be happy with AGPs making up 10% of the places allocated for women. They are not women.

The idea behind women's panels, short lists etc is to overcome a lifetime of discrimination. So imagine if a very highly paid CEO who transitioned in his forties (naming no names) took one of those slots? Would that be fair?

RE Unassuming Wolf's questions, multiple people have already answered, but to add to those...

On 4, even if we were to agree to this in principle (and I'd go for no), do you actually believe that transwomen are 10% of the population? Because that's off by several orders of magnitude. 0.1% would be an extremely generous estimate. So, given that, why would you suggest that that particular group be massively overepresented politically?

1) If trans women no longer identify as a man isn't that a powerful message for feminism (they have essentially have essentially relinquished their patriarchal power and privilege) ?

That's not the way privilege works. I could renounce my university education, I could go and live in a sink estate but I would still retain my privilege. I would still be listened to and taken seriously as someone who talks right proper and has a bit of higher education. Others would still treat me better than my working class neighbours in the estate.

2) As feminism is about equality - does reinforcing gender stereotypes about men and women act to our detriment? The gender system oppresses us all?

Transgenderism reinforces stereotypes about men and women. They believe in sexed brains, that all women are somehow 'programmed' to behave and think in the same ways. Feminists say that women are adult human females, and that our reproductive capacity has nothing to do with our personality and interests. You can be a man who enjoys dresses, there's nothing wrong with that.

3) As feminists are a group in society that have to fight for their voices to be heard, do we not share a common cause with transwomen in representing their rights?

Their rights are sometimes in competition with our own. Whose rights should be represent then? For example, defining woman based on 'brain sex' will be detrimental for women but beneficial for transwomen. Employers could argue that sacking a woman during pregnancy isn't sex discrimination because men can get pregnant too.

4) If there is an issue with trans women taking the spaces of cis women in women only panels or something, could we not make them proportionately representative of the population? For example on a panel of 10 women, having one spot for a transwoman and 9 for women. would this make things better?

Transwomen don't make up 10% of the population.

1) If trans women no longer identify as a man isn't that a powerful message for feminism (they have essentially have essentially relinquished their patriarchal power and privilege) ?

They do not relinquish patriarchal power and privilege. This is bestowed and enjoyed on a class basis by a patriarchal society and cannot be opted out of or into by an individual.

2) As feminism is about equality - does reinforcing gender stereotypes about men and women act to our detriment? The gender system oppresses us all?

Feminism is about liberation of women. Also some men would have some benefit from not being expected to conform to stereotypes of masculinity, men overwhelming benefit from gender oppression. Trans ideology reinforces gender stereotypes by saying gender non-conforming individuals are actually members of the opposite sex.

3) As feminists are a group in society that have to fight for their voices to be heard, do we not share a common cause with transwomen in representing their rights?

Feminism is for the liberation of women. We might share some limited common cause with some other marginalised groups but we should not feel we need to take care of the problems of other groups. This is part of the emotional labour demanded of women in a patriarchal society. It's difficult to resist the socialisation to take care of other people but women need to be able to focus on women's rights.

4) If there is an issue with trans women taking the spaces of cis women in women only panels or something, could we not make them proportionately representative of the population? For example on a panel of 10 women, having one spot for a transwoman and 9 for women. would this make things better?

If gender non-conforming men need to have their representation among other men increased, they should organise this separately from women. This is where the Green Party's "non-men" grouping comes from (previously, the women's group).

This is OT, but I grind my teeth every time I see a poster I normally agree with, @bewilderness, liken ‘trans women are women’ to transubstantiation as ‘a belief nobody actually believes’.

I believe in transubstantiation: at the Eucharist the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ, hidden under the forms of bread and wine. I know lots of people who also believe this. It’s standard among Roman Catholics, Catholic Anglicans, and Eastern Orthodox Christians, who together make up a huge proportion, possibly the majority, of Christians worldwide.

I’m not asking anyone here to agree with me on this, just that other people’s beliefs are reported accurately.

Men still can’t become women, though

Thanks for your responses! Sorry if I swung the conversation away from the initial point of the thread!

Sigh pressed send to soon.

No one has an issue with trans people being safe, having rights and being protected from discrimination.
This cannot happen at the EXPENSE of women and girls though.

That’s about it.