Man Friday hits the news!

Discussion of #ManFriday at Hampstead Heath men-only pool:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3261705-Turns-out-Hampstead-swimming-ponds-are-single-SEX-after-all

Daily Mail article:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5780623/Female-protesters-break-men-lido-leap-pool.html#comments

#ManFriday website: manfridayuk.org/take-part/

I disagree. It was the most effective action so far, going by the press reaction.

We’re all agree gender recognition is madness but invading a men’s space is n’t the answer. Why not demonstrate outside Justine greening office as the gender recognition bill was her idea

DonkeySkin

Switch the word can to should in the sentence.

Yes men can, KH isn't trying to though, KH is not aligning with the sex fetish/pest/obsessed twats. I don't believe Kristina is one of them.

Yet we’re a tiny and highly vulnerable minority. It’s inconceivable that we can make meaningful and lasting advances at the expense of women.

Sorry, but this is BS by Kristina (Harrison, I presume). It is certainly not inconceivable that men can use the law and other social structures to impose their patriarchal myths on women, to force women to cleave to their male supremacist beliefs and even to adopt them as their own, to deny women meaningful legal protections, and for this state of affairs to endure for a very long time. Men have done it before, for most of recorded history in fact.

I think one reason this flies under the radar is that most people can't imagine that men have anything to gain by declaring that they are women.
And most men have never experienced sexual harassment, nasty remarks, leery looks etc and have no idea of the scale of it and the further opportunities that this will give.

Yes, I think self ID legislation is paused for the time being. It's become a massive ID politics hot potato. The big boys will get the link with the Trump Backlash if we point this out. Kristina mentioned it here.
www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/19538-as-a-trans-woman-this-is-the-unity-i-want-to-see

We have to tell the chaps even trans people are saying this.

Yet we’re a tiny and highly vulnerable minority. It’s inconceivable that we can make meaningful and lasting advances at the expense of women. More likely, self-identity will entrench a permanent conflict with women who as people also oppressed by gender roles, could and should be our natural allies. Instead, bitterness among women is growing and risks becoming associated with the left. If that continues it could open the door to a vicious right-wing backlash.

The vultures of the right-wing gutter press are circling. They are falsely posing as defenders of women, children, free speech and rationality, better to scapegoat trans people. A quick glance around Europe at the rise of the far right shows that this is a very dangerous state of affairs. We urgently need the leadership of the Labour Party to fully address this issue and grasp the nettle. To rescind premature policy decisions on self-identity and firmly take control of this situation to facilitate an open, respectful national conversation which asks the following fundamental question. How, whilst respecting the autonomy of different groups can we advance the lives, rights and services of trans people, of women and of all gender non-conforming people and lay the basis for future solidarity between these groups, not bitter enmity?

SwearyG top swearing

I do like an intelligent, well educated, articulate woman who says fuck a lot.

SwearyG: you are so right. TIMs have always been given the last word as 'the major stakeholders'. But you have helped to change that. Might not feel like it but you have.

He also played the gay marriage ticket/ card, ie this is just like the discrimination that we had when people first started campaigning for equal marriage.
His argument was just bullshit and false analogy designed to appeal to people's emotions and bypass any critical thinking 🙄

Well the TIM sounds like a man so his voice carries more weight even though he's a man who says he's a woman..... I want to start singing The Kinks song
🎵🎶Well I'm not dumb but I can't understand why she walks like a woman and talks like a man....

I'm fucking sick of TIMs being brought on to have the last word and without us being able to respond. I was given three minutes on world service and asked very prescriptive questions. I can list plenty of people who have fucking abused it if asked.

It still isn't a debate as only half our fucking story is told.

TIMS saying its all fine, women are the problem. As the men are asking men, they believe them. It's the women innit
Yes this

On the world service world update program this morning they had a TIM on refuting the stance taken by Hannah.
his argument was (from memory) this is just another moral panic, there are no instances of men using self ID to abuse people and women keep changing their mind about why men can't be women.

I think one reason this flies under the radar is that most people can't imagine that men have anything to gain by declaring that they are women.
Because women generally have less power and Status than men, the man who decides he's a woman is putting himself at a disadvantage in Their Eyes.
Therefore he must be genuine... he must really have been born in the wrong body, by and large people don't question this idea because they don't understand the degree to which human behaviour is learnt rather than innate.

Jux my DH thinks it’s just my latest thing to get angry about on the internet and furthermore that it’s best left to the experts - he doesn’t get the one-sidedness of the “experts”. And he’s from an ethnic minority, so there’s an undercurrent of competitive oppression. Raaah.

Now he thinks it's boring because it'll never affect him.

Does he (any he) have female relatives, including children, whose safety he cares about?

Shared the article on FB. I've been waiting for the right way to start talking to more people about this and the article has provided that.
🌻🌻 and a massive well done to both of you.

Winewinewinegin

Yes exactly, Fae was clutching at straws, trying to convince Morgan. He's not convinced.

Its like that person who won a tribunal recently claiming 16 years living as a woman but still had a man's passport......where is the proof?

Jane Fae was basically saying all ID fraud (quoted financial) is a crime so gender self id is no different to that, the fact that it's a crime acts as a deterrent, so no problems basically.

How would you prove someone wasn't what they said they were with Self-ID though? You only have their word for it.

Very different from ID fraud where you could prove someone was passing themselves off as someone else.

Sadly, most men aren't interested. A few weeks ago, when Yesitsadebate started the self-ID threads, we had a discussion about it and he was aghast. Now he thinks it's boring because it'll never affect him. I tried to ask him what sort of society he thought he might be helping to build and he said his major concern was making weed legal.

No help there then.

Really good piece in the Evening Standard.

Jane Fae was basically saying all ID fraud (quoted financial) is a crime so gender self id is no different to that, the fact that it's a crime acts as a deterrent, so no problems basically.

Men don't have the same level fear of sex/violent crime women do, so it's no worse to JF than financial crime.

I'm supposed to be working but this is much more interesting!

The public debate at the moment seems to be;

1. women miles ahead.
2. men going WTF and struggling to catch up,
3. men wondering why women are so angry
4. men asking TIMS the answer.

As the men are asking men, they believe them. It's the women innit.

More work to do.

Forgive me if this is a bit wooly, but I agree JF's point was badly made so I'm not sure what she was saying.

I though JF's point was that if you committed a crime whilst in the guise of being a real transwoman then you'd be in trouble for it. And not really a REAL TW. So that's all right then...

So basically, she recognises that there's a risk there - only she's worried about reputational damage whereas we're worried about actually fairness and safety

That was a really interesting discussion on R5 Live. It's a shame the tw whose phone kept falling off didn't get to speak much, as I suspect they didn't really have any good answers. That's me being TERFy I think.