It's not just "safe spaces" where I don't want transwomen

Unimaginative I totally agree that the line should be drawn in competition, especially in contact sports and martial arts.

I still can't get too het up about a mtf trans teen joining a girls' judo class; most people who join a martial arts class are not interested in competing, and are joining to get fit, improve confidence and learn to defend themselves, I would have thought. And as you rightly said, people who are sparring properly are not going to be hurting each other (although DD seems to amass a lot of bruises!).

Thanks for that link Datun, let's hope it starts being invoked soon and that other countries follow suit.

@DevilTree Anyone can spar with anyone in club practise. Sparring is about learning, and having fun, and respecting your partner by exercising control over what you do. Sparring and practising with people of different builds is a valuable learning experience, and where you should expect that your training partners will listen when you say "that's a bit too heavy" or "stop". I'm into martial arts and if I didn't spar with men I wouldn't get much practise in, unfortunately. Luckily, in sparring, people don't go all out to hit each other as hard as they can. If they did, I'd be in hospital after every session, and your daughter might find out that even a bloke who looks smaller can hit harder.

The line has to be drawn in competition though. Because it isn't fair that supremely talented women athletes lose out on titles, recognition and sponsorship because they are competing against mediocre male athletes. The MMA example is particularly emotive because of the possibility for the loser to come to substantial physical harm, and the socio-historical context of men using violence to make women subservient.

Personally, I think the fact that teenage girls are embarrassed to get flushed and sweaty in front of males because it's 'unfeminine' is far more of an issue than the odd mtf trans teen wanting to join a girls' judo class.

My 15 yr old DD does a boxing martial art with a largely adult, largely male group. There's a lad there the same age as her and he barely comes up to her chin. Should they not be sparring because she's taller, heavier and more powerful than him?

There are exemptions in sports. Based on advantage. They are just NOT being invoked.

I should imagine the IOC guidelines were trying to redress the advantage that men have, by focusing on testosterone. But, from what I can gather, that's just them, you don't have to use that as a benchmark.

Here is a link explaining exactly how you can invoke the equality act.

It's a long read, despite being easy to understand.

However:

"EA2010 Explanatory notes says:

614. This section allows separate sporting competitions to continue to be organised for men and women where physical strength, stamina or physique are major factors in determining success or failure, and in which one sex is generally at a disadvantage in comparison with the other. It also makes it lawful to restrict participation of transsexual people in such competitions if this is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition, but not otherwise."

"gender-affected activity is a sport, game or other activity of a competitive nature in circumstances in which the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one sex would put them at a disadvantage compared to average persons of the other sex as competitors in events involving the activity. The fact that transgender people can also be lawfully excluded from a gender-based activity means that their biological sex is the key attribute that must be considered rather than their gender identity or legal sex acquired through a GRC”.

You won't able to exclude a TIM based on your daughter feeling self-conscious, under this particular exemption. As it's about physical advantage.

But I can't see how this isn't explicit, in terms of fair competition.

fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

And for anyone who hadn't thought much about combat sports before:

Thicker bones : bigger fists, more impact against your opponent's (thinner) skull.

Weight classes do not remove the inequality between male and female athletes.

Fox's record is now 5 wins, 1 loss, if anyone's wondering.

I cannot accept mtf trans athletes even in weight-classed sports. A genetic male will have, pound-for-pound, thicker bones, more muscle and less body fat than a genetic female.

Fallon Fox is 42 years old so unlikely to be trying to make a living from fighting for much longer, thank God. Her first few opponents were not informed that she was trans, and I am appalled that that information was withheld from them. Professional MMA is dangerous, no getting away from it, and having fighters with significantly different physiology makes it even more dangerous.

Not entirely hypothetical...

That a trans woman would want to work in a refuge or fit bras is a red flag imo

Definitely.

Maybe the crossover between transgirls and girls' judo is small, buth e crossover between trans people and sports in general is a larger issue.

It's really NOT a hypothetical situation in that sense: the National Union of Students was voting for transgender students not to have to reveal their birth sex on joining university sports teams a year or so ago, because it was felt to be too exclusionary:
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/24/transgender-students-should-not-have-declare-birth-gender-applying/

(Do ignore the weird phrasing 'join the teams they were assigned to at birth'. Even the transgender movement doesn't suggest you are assigned to a sports team at birth.)

We can't go around grounding potentially harmful practice in regulation because it's hypothetical and so a 'safe' way of appeasing people. A) I don't think the likelihood is that low and b) once you make the rule you sanction the possibility.

Isn’t this all a bit hypothetical? I am on the fence as some of the trans stuff really bothers me but at the same time isn’t the number of teenage boys wanting to be girls who also want free judo really a really small number?

Yes. The OP and her daughter could go along to this targeted initiative and see what happens or boycott it on the off- chance a transgender girl might attend.

But this is more about being a teenage girl, awkward, self-conscious, not wanting to exercise, uncomfortable among boys. Feeling that breaking sweat and getting red in the face is unfeminine

Maybe you should address how unhealthy this attitude is rather than focusing on maintaining a space which allows the preservation of this attitude? It is I assume difficult to play a sport without breaking a sweat. That is going to happen regardless of who else is there. I see the point of single sex spaces for sport but I also think this delicate flower attitude is problematic.

Girl guiding is keen to remain girls only ie unlike scouting which now take girls and boys
But Trans ?Am not sure what is happening there
Would I want to take a boy of 14 who is trans (Sorry that's probably not the correct way to say it ) to Guide camp
Honestly? No

Meanwhile

www.bbc.com/news/amp/newsbeat-42909606?__twitter_impression=true
The transgender-only home giving people a 'safe place'

Insult meet injury.

@Sohardtochooseausername
Infinitesheldon and shotsfired I understand and I wouldn’t want my DD to be in that hypothetical situation. It’s so unlikely though, surely it would be easier to deal with if it did arise? I’m imagining that at some point there will be groups of women objecting to trans being in their space IRL and in a mainstream setting (ie not at feminist meeting) - but it hasn’t really happened yet.

Sadly it is NOT unlikely. And it's already happening.
Do you think these female weightlifters had a fair competition?
Or female MMA participants?

I believe it's also affecting Roller Derby, which is a really empowering activity for women - they are now being (literally) crushed by male-bodied people.

I just wondered what you would want done about it? Should there be a change in the way these things are worded?

Well, making your views heard now would be a good start. I'm not a swimmer, but I have set aside some time to write to Swim England to complain and demand an explanation about their new trans policy where born women need "educating" if a male-bodied person rocks up in their communal changing room.

There have also been many posts on MN from parents worried about how their girls are being made to change in the same places as boys who are claiming to be trans. And residential trips where they will be sleeping in the same rooms as boys. And shops like TopShop making its changing rooms communal after one man claimed he felt female that day so it was his right to go in amongst the teenage girls.

It's just insidiously creeping into every aspect of life and if we don't stand up for women now, it'll be game over.

That's all before, of course, the exhortations by activits to put pre-pubescent children on experimental drug regimes that will effectively sterilise them and give them immature genitals for life, just because they acted a bit girly or tomboyish (therefore they must be trans, not just enjoying perfectly normal children's activties).

And as a final point for now, I'll mention that gay and lesbian people are being told their sexuality is wrong, that they are actually trans and that lesbian women particularly are transphobic if they don't have lesbian sex with a female penis. Because apparently "female penises" exist now too.

I get it, I was very much like you not that long ago. "Live and let live, surely someone will make sure it's all dealt with rationally and everyone's considered.. blah blah". But the more I read and researched and looked, the more horrified I became.

I think the words 'savage beating' were used to describe what he did to his female boxing opponent.

JellySlice You're absolutely spot on. Plus, if women have no idea how much men hate us, teenage girls certainly don't.

they have no concept of what they're giving up

So much this.

Sohardtochooseausername google Fallon Fox.

What is the female girls just united and refused to compete with any trans participants?
*
Just stood together (perhaps pre-organised) and said "no. We'll compete fairly and squarely against each other, but not unfairly against a male, be-penised individual"*

Unfortunately that is exactly what our teenage dds are least likely to do. If mine are anything to go by, they are fully paid-up, Koolaid-drinking members of the "Transwomen Are Women" club.

But that's because we have brought them up to be kind and considerate. To respect the rights of others and accord them the same freedoms we expect for ourselves. To value their ability to be assertive, rather than aggressive. And they have chosen to be assertive on the part of those they have been taught are the underdogs.

And because they are teens who have been brought up in a far freer and more equal society than we, or our mothers, or our grandmothers grew up in - so they have no concept of what they're giving up.

And because, despite the more equal society, and despite our attempts to bring them up as assertive girls who understand their rights to equality, society has nonetheless socialised them to be accepting and gentle and giving.

It worries me.

It's all of it
Sport, guides, the right of women to meet and discuss together
It so underhand. I'd rather they just did away with all single sex groupings, at least it would be honest
Amongst the older group
That a trans woman would want to work in a refuge or fit bras is a red flag imo

Infinitesheldon and shotsfired I understand and I wouldn’t want my DD to be in that hypothetical situation. It’s so unlikely though, surely it would be easier to deal with if it did arise? I’m imagining that at some point there will be groups of women objecting to trans being in their space IRL and in a mainstream setting (ie not at feminist meeting) - but it hasn’t really happened yet.

I just wondered what you would want done about it? Should there be a change in the way these things are worded?

Yes Sohardtochooseausername it's a very small number and it might not happen that much and the only losers are girls and women........

@Sohardtochooseausername Isn’t this all a bit hypothetical? I am on the fence as some of the trans stuff really bothers me but at the same time isn’t the number of teenage boys wanting to be girls who also want free judo really a really small number?

It's the thin edge of the wedge though. Or boiling frogs, if you prefer.

Stop it now, before it becomes too big to handle.

Yeah the sport issue is completely batshit (like most of it, tbh). We have the sexes separate for a reason. And that reason really is not invalidated by 'gender feelz'. Its unfair for the males to compete against females (past the age of is it 9 or so?) and ontop of fairness, it can actually be dangerous depending on the sport too.