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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transactivism and the lesbian community

187 replies

iwantmycommunityback · 21/01/2018 18:05

I’ve been thinking a lot over the last few days in particular about transactivism and lesbians and thought I might try to put some of it into writing, partly to try to make sense of it and partly because I keep still seeing people refer to the ‘LGBT’ or ‘LGBTQ’ community and equating transactivism with lesbian and gay rights.

I think the most obvious impact of transactivism is on young lesbians being encouraged to identify as heterosexual transmen and to subject themselves to damaging medical treatment, the effects of which they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I think Janice Turner’s article in the Times already covers that issue very well: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

One of the problems for young lesbians (in addition to the rise in lesbophobia particularly among the young) is that, when they reach out to ‘their’ community, eg join an LGBT group for support, what they get isn’t their community at all but something very hostile.

Gender critical feminists will be familiar with the idea of trans-identified males co-opting women’s identities, women’s rights, women’s spaces etc for their own ends but there are other forms of appropriation going on, particularly in the (former) LGBT ‘community’ (including transsexuals themselves having been co-opted by people who don’t have body dysphoria and who marginalise them as ‘truscum’) . For lesbians, in addition to the appropriation of womanhood, I think the two main additional identity appropriations that cause problems are:

Transbians

These are heterosexual biological males who identify as women and, therefore, as lesbians and have hijacked our community (support groups, social groups, bars, forums, you name it) and believe that lesbians should be open to having sex with someone with a penis if they ‘identify’ as a woman (see ‘the cotton ceiling’). This group has widened further e.g. including ‘transfeminine men’ and men who identify as a woman part-time (so get to walk through life as a heterosexual man but just ‘identify’ as a lesbian for a few hours to access a lesbian group or lesbian club night where they are of course the most oppressed person ever and must be centred at all times).

As well as being included in our groups, they are held up as examples to us eg for International Women’s Day one group had a talk from an ‘inspirational woman’ who was a biological male, who hadn’t had any surgery, was dressed as a bloke (not that that should make any difference..), had a bit of stubble going on and identified as non-binary (pronouns something like ‘zie’) not as a woman. Like, not only could they not find an actual woman who was inspirational enough to fill that spot, they couldn’t even find a man who was prepared to say they were a woman. Stuff like this is being funded by charity grants intended for women and for lesbian and gay people.

‘Queer’ straight trans allies

This is pretty much a consequence of the above. For those who don’t know, queer is now used as an all-encompassing term for anyone who doesn’t identify as a heterosexual “cis” person. However, it is also preferred by certain people over terms like lesbian, gay and bisexual because it does away with what are considered the rigid boundaries of ‘gender’ and sexuality e.g. lesbian and gay meaning being attracted to the same sex, bisexual as being attracted to ‘both’ sexes, when certain people reject these categories and the idea that there are two sexes.

Take, for example, Lily Madigan who is a biological male who has now come out as a lesbian and is dating a woman. Let’s presume for a moment that this woman (let’s call her Chloe) is a) a biological female b) and a passionate trans uber-ally. Chloe is a bio female who is dating a bio male with a penis who wears a pink hoodie and identifies as a woman. Say, before that, Chloe was dating a bio male with a penis who wears a blue hoodie and is, therefore, a man. Maybe in her next relationship, she will date a bio male with a penis who has purple hair and identifies as ‘genderqueer’. Therefore, Chloe can say that she dates men, women and genderqueer people, including both cisgender and trans people. Therefore, she is a queer or pansexual woman.

Along with the transbians, these ‘queer’ woman become involved in what was formerly the lesbian and bisexual women’s community. However, these trans uber-allies have a lot of views that are contrary to the interests particularly of lesbians. They believe that lesbians have ‘cis’ privilege and also that lesbians (along with gay men) are the most privileged people in the LGBT community. They believe that lesbians are narrow-minded and transphobic for only wanting to date other biological women and oppress transwomen who can’t break through the ‘cotton ceiling’ of their underwear.

I’m not even sure when this stuff started because, like most of us, due to the blurring of the meaning of words, I just didn’t see it happening. A lot of the main online websites, blogs and forums for lesbians started to change, with different women running them and, over time, a shift in the tone – lots about trans inclusion and more references to being ‘queer’ and open to relationships with anyone, about how some people (the lesbians) had privilege in our community and should prioritise these other people, less representation of butch women (despite the talk of blurring of gender boundaries/genderfluidity) etc.

It was only years later, someone who knew the women who had been running one of these websites was talking about who they were and who they were in relationships (bio females in relationships with bio males, basically) that the penny finally dropped with me that these were straight women appropriating our identity and lecturing at us and marginalising us in our own community.

This blurring of the language enables them to do it – but even in cases where you can see it for yourself (e.g. if you are looking at what is clearly a straight couple, who you know will be read by everyone they meet as a straight couple, even if the guy is wearing a bit of eyeliner), you couldn’t say anything as you couldn’t suggest that he wasn’t a woman (or genderqueer or whatever).

Why aren’t the LGB community (in particular lesbians) speaking out more?

  1. Firstly, I think it takes a while to see what it going on (for a number of reasons including the blurring of language, the shutting down of any discussion or even thought on the issue e.g. through the repetition of mantras such as transwomen are women, positive experience of/friendships with traditional transsexuals and not understanding how much the trans movement has changed, misrepresentation of this issue in what we consider to be ‘our’ trusted (LGB) news outlets, organisations, websites etc, the conflating of trans issues with gay issues that aren’t really comparable if you actually give them any thought but on the surface seem similar to negative things that have happened to you and feel personal to you resulting in a tendency to just automatically react against and feel angry about any opposition, especially if you are being told that it is ‘anti-LGBT’ and coming from ‘anti-LGBT’ organisations).

  2. Some lesbians aren’t really that involved any more so aren’t aware of what is going on. Many lesbians will have accessed the LGB community, lesbian support groups, lesbian/gay bars when they first came out, when they were looking for a relationship, in times of difficulties etc but are now happily settled in a relationship and don’t feel the need to access those resources. They will still have their lesbian ‘community’ but that will mean texting their friends Sarah & Jo and Claire & Debs and arranging to meet up at their (straight) local pub for the evening. Any involvement with the wider LGBT community will be more minimal like maybe watching the Pride Parade once a year or occasionally reading something on an LGBT website about some awful transphobes who are attacking the LGBT community. They will think back to the transwomen they knew 10 – 15 years ago who were nice people who just wanted to get on with their lives.

  3. Young lesbians identifying as transmen rather than as lesbians and, for the few who do, a lack of access to a real lesbian community which could introduce them to an alternative to the current discourse and give them the opportunity to discuss shared issues, learn from others’ experiences and have other lesbian women on their side. Young lesbians who aren’t accepted or feel isolated in their school, family, community etc will seek out an LGBT youth group and this community they reach out to will heavily endorse the transactivist agenda as part and parcel (and absolutely central) to their identity. Where else do they go and how do they know that there is anything else?

  4. The low status of lesbian women within the LGBT community (I don’t think people outside are really aware of how much misogyny and in particular hatred of lesbians there is from some gay men).

  5. The reason you are probably all aware of – the risks of speaking out, which are increased if you are a lesbian as it is coming from your ‘own’ community and being a lesbian puts you under suspicion of being trans-exclusionary (ie penis-exclusionary) anyway. If you run a lesbian business or events, you can’t risk being anything other than pro the trans agenda or they will destroy your livelihood. And I’m sure most of us have seen the threats and actual violence meted out to those who dare to disagree. There’s also a fear about just broaching the subject with another actual female lesbian because you don’t know how many of you are onside so it’s a risk. From tentatively raising the issue with a select few, I do know lesbian friends who have got concerns about this but we are very cautious and tentative about saying anything to other women because of the risk. The bigger stories like the closure of MichFest ( www.curvemag.com/News/Michigan-Womyns-Music-Festival-to-End-after-40-Years-447/ ) and the men wielding baseball bats to keep the lesbians in check on Women’s Marches and Pride Parades ( gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/transdykes-the-anti-lesbian-antifa/ ) are just symbols of the way we are being policed and the consequences for what is left of lesbian events, lesbian-run businesses etc, if we don’t keep in line.

  6. Finally, simply, as I’ve explained above, another reason some of ‘us’ don't oppose or seem to actively support transactivism is that not all of ‘us’ are actually ‘us’. As lesbians step away from the LGBT 'community' and more ‘lesbian and queer women’ emerge from the two groups referred to above, an increasing proportion of ‘us’ are actually a subset of heterosexual men and women who loathe lesbians and support the transactivist agenda - but, because of the way language is being twisted, you’d never know that.

OP posts:
iwantmycommunityback · 22/01/2018 22:08

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7s4bu2/as_a_lesbian_in_university_i_feel_increasingly/

I've just seen the comment on there from the masculine-presenting woman who was constantly asked in her LGBT group when she was going to come out as trans to the extent that she began questioning her own gender identity and did identify as trans for a while. I thought that younger generations of lesbian and gay people would grow up in more enlightened times than I did but I'm really glad that I'm not growing up now Sad

OP posts:
irretating · 22/01/2018 20:07

That reddit thread Sad I want to help but as I'm not part of that demographic I don't know what I could do.

There's complete radio-silence on any voice that doesn't chime in with ''transwomen are women and they are the most persecuted people in the world ever'' rinse and repeat ad infinitum. The voices of lesbians, the voices of the trans widows, the voices of the de-transitioners, they are drowned out, they are disbelieved.

SophoclesTheFox · 22/01/2018 19:58

What a sobering read, Iwant.

Surely, surely we must be near the bottom of this madness now, and things will start to turn around?

Datun · 22/01/2018 19:54

Add to this. I would love to see it go viral.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146926-I-am-this-woman

PositivelyPERF · 22/01/2018 19:53
  • golds = told
PositivelyPERF · 22/01/2018 19:53

You know what I find just as tragic? I have a lesbian couple as clients and one is very open about her concerns for young women and has golds me that universities are becoming so unsafe for young women. ON the other hand her wife has accused me of being a bigot and told me I was wrong when I mentioned young lesbians being bullied. They’re both in their 50s, have been together for years and they don’t discuss this because of the disagreements it causes between them. They are a lovely couple, but this is the male elephant in the room. The TRAs have done such a good job when even some lesbians are falling for their bullshite.

IamtheOrpheliac · 22/01/2018 19:52

Iwantmycommunityback Meetup is a really good idea, I genuinely hadn't considered looking for groups through that before (although living in a conservative area doesn't get my hopes up). Being a younger generation and a relatively antisocial person, I have really noticed how much online LGBTQ spaces have changed. I remember the website I got a lot of support from coming out, sadly now closed, felt so much more equal and supportive than a lot of the communities out there now. Trans women were welcomed, but their voice wasn't the only voice or the loudest.

I don't like to feel that I'm freezing anyone out and I have known a few lovely trans people, although admittedly mostly trans men. I want to be inclusive to trans women, I just don't understand why their needs have to be centred in every discussion. I don't understand why questioning them or bringing up conflicts of interest or suggesting that maybe they reconsider the way they put some of their points across (the cotton ceiling being an example of this), is considered 'literal violence'. Especially when essentially bullying lesbians into sharing their safe spaces and their beds is not. I guess I'm just asking for the same respect I'm willing to give?

Challenging the trans activist agenda is hard because they are often unwilling to engage. #nodebate gets thrown around as do statistics of how many trans women are murdered and victims of violence. I find it quite hard to present a reasoned argument in such a way that I can't be immediately ignored and branded a 'TERF'.

It would be helpful if there were an easily accessible list of resources for young lesbians. To reassure butch lesbians that being butch doesn't automatically make them trans. To reassure all lesbians that just like every other person on the planet, their right to consent is absolute, their body is their body and they can refuse to have sex with anyone for any reason and doing so doesn't make them a bigot.

Datun · 22/01/2018 19:37

I do find the erasure of homosexuality makes people pause for thought.

They think this is all part and parcel of gay rights.

It soooo isn't. It's the opposite.

LangCleg · 22/01/2018 19:36

As an old, married, straight woman, I honestly don't know what I can do to help, other than be vocal on social media about the othering of lesbians, the cotton ceiling and the general lack of respect shown.

But if there is, shout out. I'll help wherever I can.

Datun · 22/01/2018 19:24

Bumping.

guardianfree · 22/01/2018 19:23

iwantmycommunityback
That reddit thread is so shocking. The palpable fear amongst women of being accused of 'transphobia' for not wanting to centre men as lesbians. Having to creep around secretly and being denied access to all the funded resources / opportunities that are MEANT to support lesbians. Every time I think I have my head around the awfulness of all this, something else pops up that shakes me to the core.

Thank you for posting this and let's keep this thread bumped so that the reality of what is happening to young lesbian women remains visible.

iwantmycommunityback · 22/01/2018 19:09

Thank-you for all your responses.

How can we help? Other than keep on keeping on.

I'm not sure what can be done apart from continuing to challenge the transactivist agenda. I just want people to know that transactivism is not a pro-LGBT thing. It is massively damaging particularly to lesbians and the "LGBT community" is not all in favour of these changes.

For example, I went to a support group for bi/lesbian women and found that it was 80% trans women and non binary men. Which is OK as far as it goes I suppose. But I was expecting a safe space where I could connect with other women and this wasn’t it. I didn’t go back.

I think you can still find some groups which are at least mainly women, if you search but they won't be 'official groups',. IME, the lesbian groups run by actual LGBT organisations are dominated by trans-identified men (TIMs) but I go to some Meetup groups where it is mainly women and sometimes there are only women there - It obviously can't actually be advertised as bio women only and there will sometimes be men there and no one could object but, for whatever reason, there are some groups which aren't dominated by TIMs.

It's frustrating that they have taken over the main, official groups for a number of reasons - Those are often the groups that the most vulnerable just-coming-out, don't-know-any-other-lesbians type women first find out about. They are the groups that receive all the funding and they are the groups that get consulted with as representatives of the LGBT community. Also, just the fact that I and others like me have so many years of history with these organisations and these buildings - first coming there as a scared young person, making friends, later volunteering there to help others, helping to paint or make other improvements to the building etc - and now it just isn't ours any more but the same sign (with added 'T') is still on the door and the rest of the world thinks everything's fine.

I came upon the thread below today and there are a lot of suggestions about lesbians trying to arrange to meet up informally which I think is the way to go now - but it does make it even more difficult for women who are newly coming out or newly moved to an area as they don't already have those connections and, like in your experience FayJay, if they go to the 'official' lesbian groups it will mainly be men.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7s4bu2/as_a_lesbian_in_university_i_feel_increasingly/

OP posts:
Movablefeast · 22/01/2018 07:59

I feel we have entered the Twilight Zone.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/01/2018 00:24

I am very worried about young lesbians. I suppose they've always had to deal with men trying to fetishize and heterosexualize them. But now they are bigots for refusing this Sad

I've had two worrisome conversations with young lesbians recently. One where a young lesbian couple were talking about one of them transitioning 'to make things easier'. I normally keep my head well below the parapet but I did caution them against hasty action. The other was a young lesbian whose friend at school presents as 'butch' and is being told she's transphobic for not 'admitting' she's trans! It's madness.

Datun · 21/01/2018 23:35

iwantmycommunityback

Your post is indeed heartbreaking.

I was first alerted to the problem by Gendertrender.

I happened upon the site because of the trans issue, but hung around, listening to all the women.

Partly because they are so incredibly well informed, but also because their attitude to men trying to take over was very refreshing! Particularly as the misogyny of the trans movement was weighing so heavily on me.

They are mostly lesbians. And they are devastated at the decimation of their community.

I take energy from the way they talk, their knowledge, strength, solidarity and their, sometimes highly entertaining, complete lack of interest in what men think of them.

It was quite eye opening for me, a heterosexual woman, to see exactly what it looks like not giving shiny shit what men think.

I hadn't realised quite how much my heterosexuality coloured my viewpoint.

Gallus Meg does a truly awesome job of highlighting the misogyny in the trans movement and collating/recording information.

She comes across as something of a tekky genius as she, Sherlock Holmes like, unearths all sorts of things.

I'm sure you know of her and her site already, but I thought I would tell you that yes, I get it, and I have those women to thank for opening my eyes.

And not just about the impact of the trans movement, but about the lack of media exposure/support of lesbians in general, particularly those who present as butch.

It had never really occurred to me before that lesbianism in TV and films are, what I think is known as lipstick lesbians?

Which now looks, in hindsight, as 'lesbianism for men to get hot'.

So yes, I'm rather ashamed to say that it's only recently I have understood the plight of lesbians both in the past and in the current climate.

If it's any consolation, it's got me absolutely infuriated and I talk about it a lot!

cafeaulaitpourvous · 21/01/2018 21:15

My adult daughter is a lesbian

She went through a stage at the age of four when she was a boy - she dressed and played what could be described as 'boylike'. ( even though I don't believe in boy stuff etc)
We supported her - bought her the toys she wanted, dressed her as she wanted. Called her the name she wanted but she had no issues with being called she or her.
She was four
Four years old
It was a phase
If she was four now I am sadly aware she would be probably one of these poor girls who are lined up for transitioning.
In hindsight she was experimenting with her feelings and possibly the beginnings of en emerging sexuality.

I have tried to talk to her about all the TRA stuff and she is brainwashed. Apparently having a Sex is now defunct and it's all about Gender. And Trans women are.... you get the drift.

I am afraid for her and her friends. I am afraid for all women and girls.

FayJay · 21/01/2018 21:01

It’s an awful situation. I’m bisexual and was very involved in the LGB (as it was then!) society at uni. It was a lovely, welcoming circle and I have hugely fond memories of the friends I made there. I came out of a heterosexual relationship a few years ago and began to explore the gay scene again after many years away. It’s unrecognisable now. For example, I went to a support group for bi/lesbian women and found that it was 80% trans women and non binary men. Which is OK as far as it goes I suppose. But I was expecting a safe space where I could connect with other women and this wasn’t it. I didn’t go back.

I don’t think the scene I remember so fondly from the late 90s/early 2000s exists anymore.

Deadlylampshade · 21/01/2018 20:50

I’ve noticed this too, men’s feelings and orgasms are the most important thing ever amen.

What I’ve also noticed is completely straight girls referring to themselves as femme presenting trans. What the actual fuck is that? Just a normal woman then.
I was reading about a femme presenting trans man who was also demisexual. So a straight woman who wore women’s clothes and only had sex with people she was in relationships. Literally the straightest it’s possivke to be, and she wasn’t going on about how finding out her identity made her so much happier because she’d always thought there was something wrong with her.

They remind me of the girls who used to kiss other girls at parties to turn the men on.

IamtheOrpheliac · 21/01/2018 20:35

PositivelyPERF There is a correlation between autism diagnosis and identifying as trans. I am autistic and I was definitely swayed towards ID-ing as nonbinary at one point. It must be even harder to be in a homophobic family. Hopefully when she's older she will realise that it's okay to be a lesbian and you can be butch without being a man!

Thank you for all your supportive comments! It's another thing that I can't talk about in the LGBTQ community because of course trans women are the most oppressed group and lesbians are so privileged by comparison that to say anything would make me a TERF. I want to live and let live, but it feels more and more like people with vaginas are having to bow to the demands of people with penises.

newtlover · 21/01/2018 20:27

that sounds awful IamtheOrpheliac, I wish you could be whisked back in time to before this was going on and you could be confident that someone who said they were lesbian was a woman. It's not just thet you're hearing stuff that sounds like it's from a misogynistic man, it IS from a misogynistic man. 'how do you know until you've tried it' is exactly what straight men have always said to lesbians. (NASMALT)

irretating · 21/01/2018 20:23

I suppose they get away with it because nobody will challenge the most-oppressed-people-in-the-world-ever.

It is sickening.

UpstartCrow · 21/01/2018 20:07

I'm sickened to hear this.
Orientation is a protected characteristic, and I will continue to stand up against gay conversion therapy in all its guises.

guardianfree · 21/01/2018 20:07

IamtheOrpheliac
Thank you for sharing this.What stands out to me is how hard you have tried to accept trans identified men into your life as a lesbian and how little respect there has been for your choices. I am horrified that younger woman are being treated like this. Our right to decide who we have sex with is sacrosanct and anyone who tries to coerce you is abusive.

PositivelyPERF · 21/01/2018 20:02

That actually made me tear up. I’m so sorry lesbians are being bullied in this way. I have a 15yr old niece who identifies as a boy. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that she comes from a deeply homophobic family. I just want to shake her and hug her and tell her that it’s ok to be a lesbian, but I’m a coward and know that it will all be for nothing. She also has autism.

IamtheOrpheliac · 21/01/2018 19:59

Speaking as a young lesbian, I think you have hit on a lot of the issues. When I first got involved with LGBTQ circles at uni, it was a welcoming atmosphere and trans activists were at the stage of gender doesn't equal sex. It made perfect sense. If a lesbian dated a trans woman, because she (as a lesbian) was attracted to femininity and saw her girlfriend having a penis as minor issue, people did sometimes criticise that and say she should define herself as bisexual. Personally, if you're mostly attracted to females/people who present as women, you can call yourself a lesbian if you choose to.

Over the last couple of years, things have changed a lot and it does sometimes feel like as a lesbian I'm not allowed to define my sexuality. I'm being a 'weird vagina fetishist' if I say I don't like penis, because some women have penises. I totally accept those women. I accept their right to call themselves women, although I do understand why a lot of people on this board don't. The thing is, that when I was a little 15 year old questioning my sexuality, part of what made me realise I was a lesbian, was realising that the idea of PIV sex disgusts me.

Now I can find trans women physically attractive. I could, and have been, in romantic relationships with trans women. But if they have a penis, then no, I'm not interested in sex. I do have issues with trans rights activists calling lesbians out as transphobic if they're not attracted to penises, even if those are girl penises. For the most part, these call out articles/blogs/vlogs are hedged in 'we're not saying that you have to sleep with any person trans or otherwise if you don't want to.' and 'nobody is trying to force themselves on you'. No, but you are saying that if I say I don't like something I'm a bigot. That could be construed as pressurising. When I did date a trans woman, she did pressure me, she did use the language of oppression to guilt me into agreeing to things I was uncomfortable with. I left her, she went back to living as a man, honestly, yes, it did make me feel like I'd been played. At the same time I don't want to judge all trans people by that one experience, but it would be nice if trans rights activists had some awareness of how many lesbians are accosted and assaulted by men, of how many times a lesbian has heard 'it's alright darling, I've got a girl dick' or 'how do you know you don't like it if you've never tried it.' You would think that people who are so hypersensitive to language themselves would be aware of how similar some of their rhetoric sounds to that of misogynistic men.

Sorry that ended up longer than I intended!

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