Follow on thread III - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

Batshite it takes guts to admit that stuff.

I think I only knew about all this ages ago because I had women who were much more knowledgeable than me in my life correcting my well-meaning gaffs.

Pic attached, if you don't want to click link. I avoid links as much as possible tbh so thought this may be better.

Yeah he probably was less at risk than a small man tbh. This is another reason I think its very unfair to be moving 'transwomen' to female jails for their safety. Other men are at risk too. Smaller men, effeminate men, gay men, any man really who is not 'top dog'. Make male jails safer. Apparently there is more rape in male prisons than there is female victims out of prison. Thats extremely shocking if true and surely there is a way to stop this.

This was the pic in the press at the time

ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/46/2015/10/Tara-Hudson-Landscape-1.jpg

So you can see my point I would guess...

As I say though, it was made out he had had SRS and I was also in my 'shut up terf' mindset at the time. Its terrible looking back on it all and how I behaved. I was very much like perfectly actually..looking for anything I could twist to make these horrible transphobes look as bad as possible. I could not see any problems at all. when the scales were lifted, I was in shock tbh. And I not cannot understand how I could ever have been so blind to it all. I always considered myself a quite intelligent woman..I definitely was not a year or so ago..

He did look very feminine in the pictures used in the press though so I do think he might have been in danger in a male prison
I heard he was a big bruiser. Perhaps he was less at risk than a small, effeminate, bookish or timid man in prison?

So in short basically, keep the GRC process as it is. Strengthen the exceptions and let compan ies know that they absolutely can refuse to send a male person to attend to a ill female if they request a woman, and so on.

The sports committee need to take their heads out of their arses and put their foot down. Its unfair to female people, and most people can see that. I don't think this will happen soon though, maybe when the olympics is on and male people are competing against female people and it comes to enough peoples attention.

Prisons also need to be told not to be putting male people in with females. I don't understand at all how the decision was made to do this. Though I do admit, when there was the petition about that Tara Hudson..I signed it This was back when I was in the 'let people live as they wish' stage, before my eyes were opened to the abuse. I also believed the petition and the papers that Hudson had had SRS. It was only when I was reading mumsnet that I found out that he had only had a boob job and still had a penis, which he was using on a regular basis, and that he had a record of very violent crimes. He did look very feminine in the pictures used in the press though so I do think he might have been in danger in a male prison, but the answer is definitely not to throw bepenised people in with the females!

Onto prisons, which I know was not in bertands list. Male people again should never be in with female people. If 'transitioned' they can go in solitary if they are in danger in the male prison. OR, given they are so many trans-identified males in prison (mostly for sexual crimes too) a trans wing or two in a prison would be sufficient. If this means families have to travel further to visit, again sorry its just tough. I am not willing to throw female people under the bus and potentially put them in danger to make it easier for male people and their families when there is another option

Last paragraph was meant to read

Many of you are not happy with the law as it currently stands and some have suggested that trans women should never be legally recognised as women. You say this goes against biological fact. This is a position I could never back as a 'trans inclusionary' feminist.

It does go against biological fact. There is not denying this?

I think male people should always be recorded as male people in crime stats. Given after 'transition' trans-identified males commit crime at the same rate that 'normal' male people do.

Sport, male people cannot compete against female people full stop. They can compete against male people if they c hose to, so I am not 'banning' them from sport. Just I recognize that male people have a huge biological advantage over female people and that even with lowered testosterone, there are still differences that would put the competing females on the back foot. If they do not wish to compete against male people, then they do not compete. Many people cannot compete for various reasons at professional level...its unfortunate but its tough luck really. Transmen..also should compete against male people if they are on testosterone. As this also gives them an advantage over other females and is basically..doping so they would be excluded anyway because of that.

Care homes and the likes, if the patient requests a woman, they should get a female person. Not a male person who is a woman in their head. This, I believe is covered already in the exceptions part of the GRA..hopefully this exception is being followed and there are not vulnerable females currently being attended to by male people when they asked for women.

Onto prisons, which I know was not in bertands list. Male people again should never be in with female people. If 'transitioned' they can go in solitary if they are in danger in the male prison. OR, given they are so many trans-identified males in prison (mostly for sexual crimes too) a trans wing or two in a prison would be sufficient. If this means families have to travel further to visit, again sorry its just tough. I am not willing to throw female people and potentially put them in danger under the bus to make it easier for male people and their families when there is another option.

Many of you are not happy with the law as it currently stands and some have suggested that trans women should never be legally recognised as women. You say this goes against biological fact. This is a position I could never back as a 'trans inclusionary' feminist.

I am indeed one of those people who is not happy with the law as it currently stands.
'Transitioning' is a lie. It is a lie that can help people dysphoric people, but it is still a lie.

I believe that people should be truthful before the law, truthful when competing in sports, truthful in positions of responsibility truthful when making applications and claims.

I think you perfectly and your mates are perfectly entitled to play along with lies to make each other happy, but I don't believe you and your mates are entitled to push others into playing along, or to make the world less fair by competing unfairly in sports, unfairly taking positions of trust, responsibility or representation, making unfair claims to services and support or unfairly using facilities designated for others.

In order to be fair and trans at the same time, individuals who insist on preserving the lie for their own wellbeing (ie never having their actual sex recognised or mentioned or participating accordingly) need to forgo competitive sports, jobs involving performing body searches, intimate examinations, personal care or supporting vulnerable people, forgo using toilets designated for either sex, avoid breaking the law and forgo applying for sex specific services and funding.

I want to protect and strengthen women's rights, services and protections for all females (including those who identify as trans) and that is why I am a feminist.

You do go on a lot about various types of fallacies perfectly. Either you are trotting out these without understanding wtf they actually mean, or you know perfectly well and using them to try to 'bait and switch'.

But if you do understand them, then you will know that the problem is that there is no logic on the side of the TRAs. It might be time to go back to your philosophy 101 class and read up on those fallacies.

You will get there in the end.

And realise that none of us are trying to be mean girls to trans people, but looking to protect the rights of women, children and trans people

Rogue, I think she wants you to apologise for her not understanding your posts - or something like that

Still waiting for that apology SpartonDregs and RogueBiscuit)

For what exactly?

Well at least we know where perfectly stands.

She supports the reporting of male crime as being committed by women, as long as those men have been taking female hormones for a while. She's quite happy that rape and sexual assault figures are being, and will be skewed.

She supports women's sporting events being won by men, as long as those men have testosterone levels in the lower realms of normal for men. She doesn't mind if a 6'4 male-bodied person beats the shit out of women in a boxing ring/on a rugby pitch. If women don't like it, they should (presumably) just give up competing.

She supports vulnerable women being forced to submit to intimate care and treatment by men, as long as those men declare themselves to be women. She supports rape survivors having physical exams from male-bodied people.

That's sorted that out.

I agree. Demographically they are a different population which ought to be measured under equality legislation.

SophoclesTheFox mentions Laurel Hubbard, a mediocre male weightlifter who transitioned in their thirties.

As far as I can tell, this bloke has never "transitioned" in the transgender meaning, he has never claimed to be a woman trapped inside a man's body, to have a feminine soul, etc. He has made very vague statements, e.g. he is pursuing his own path.

All he is done is (temporarily) suppressed his testosterone to the level required to meet the requirements to compete with women.

I don't think trans people should be recorded as their acquired gender in crime statistics. I think they should have a separate category. This would help understand the nature of crime against trans people and put in place appropriate crime prevention measures for trans people. And it would mean that trends in crimes committed by women wouldn't be skewed by the addition of people born male.

Once one has a GRC it's against the law for third parties to disclose the fact, isn't it?

So essentially is it that what we would like is that if there are any changes to the gra that no matter where on the spectrum a person wishes to place their gender identity regardless of appearance or medical interventions or grc that they still be considered to be their biological sex for those exceptions currently in the ea - so when a womens refuge advertises a role this is usually made explicitly clear - and as long as people know the ea it should be fine. How would it work where jobs are open to both men and women like care work / midwifery. If you have a transitioning midwife how do we make it so that the employee is able to work without having to state that they are born male everytime they give treatment or do we need to gain consent at the start - i briefly had a male midwife (cant remember if he had a different job title)during one long labour and was asked if it was ok and i got the impression that this is usual practice - however i have a feeling that to be asked is it ok to have biological male with a female gender identity to be your birth midwife might be more complex to navigate.

Wouldn't the world be boring if we all agreed.

I have reached my own conclusions which is the current law provides all the necessary protections to women and trans people. Therefore I oppose the new GRA amendments put forward regarding self ID.

Many of you are not happy with the law as it currently stands and some have suggested that trans women should never be legally recognised as women. You say this goes against biological fact. This is a position I could never back as a 'trans inclusionary' feminist.

And the crime statistics thing is a positive dream for MRA.

And a nightmare for service providers.

I know very little about sport. But I do know that my very sporty son could beat most girls his age in most sports he took part in by the age of about, maybe, 13? He was stronger than me by then too.

But do you accept that TIMs will change, and have likely already changed, female sex crime statistics? Does this bother you?

Fair enough. It’s natal women under the bus then.

Bertrand and Sophacles I assume we are talking in the context of the GRA proposal?

If so, as per the last thread, I can see why the concerns are there with self ID. Therefore my position is keep the law as it currently stands.

• MTF trans women who have a GRC are recorded as women in crime stats

• a person needs to have transitioned as per the Olympics committee regulations before competing in sport

• Keep the exceptions in the Equality Act (outlined by Pencils earlier in the thread) which protect women in vulnerable scenarios:

There is an exception in the Equality Act (<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7/5" target="_blank">schedule 3, Part 7, para 28) that permits female only services and spaces to exclude transwomen, even those with a GRC, where this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

There is another exception (<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1/1" target="_blank">schedule 9, part 1, para 1) that permits a female only employment role to exclude transwomen, even those with a GRC, where this is a genuine occupational requirement.