Follow on thread III - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

Lily is so dim he strikes me as the kind of person who would think all cats are female and all dogs are male, so the fact that he claims to think he can one day give birth is unsurprising given how thick he appears to be.

This is what Lily is referring to, not saying I agree with the ethics but it puts her comments in context:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/04/babies-born-transgender-mothers-could-happen-tomorrow-fertility/

My opinion of Lily is that he's not terribly bright and is being manipulated by people who are much more media savvy. The way he has been lauded in the media, the pro bono SHL at school, the speaking engagements he's been offered, despite being almost incapable of stringing a sentence together...

The sad thing is that he will fuck up, as all young adults fuck up believing himself to be untouchable and he will be dumped for the next sensation. What he will have done is to move the Overton Window which will make all other ridiculous statements seem tame and reasonable in comparison.

Having said that, I really hope I'm wrong, because anyone using such an obviously fucked up and not real bright kid in this way is sick.

I remember back in the 80s having to defend the position of women's officer against men who either thought they could do it better or who wanted to have a laugh. Now they ride in, with fanfare, on Trojan horses.

Apparently it's transphobic to say a TIM can't get pregnant, because most women can't get pregnant right at any given moment so Lily is the same as most women

A women's officer who is offended by mention of female biology.

From the Guardian article posted by Assigned.

All explained at the time as a tomboy phase that she might eventually grow out of.

Girl hates dresses and likes football. Girl is told that these are boy activities and that she'll grow out of it one day. Girl doesn't grow out of it. Girl decides she's a boy. Family knew all along because girl continued to resist repeated attempts at getting her to conform to femininity.

The trouble is she might actually believe she can get pregnant.

I veer from derision to pity and back again. It's very confusing.

Lots of trans people who have had surgery are on social media, expressing surprise and distress that they can't get sexual partners apart from one-off hook ups from men who fancy a novelty shag. It's sad. It's clear that there are truly epic levels of denial in many of those who undergo transition. And the media normalising transition, with very little coverage of the downside, of course makes things worse.

As more kids are encouraged to take PBs from before puberty, things will get worse. How can you possibly make an informed decision to give up sexual pleasure for a lifetime before you have ever had an orgasm?

Lily must be trolling....surely...

mobile.twitter.com/madigan_lily/status/946552946212384769

Apparently it's transphobic to say a TIM can't get pregnant, because most women can't get pregnant right at any given moment so Lily is the same as most women

ATeardropExplodes

I agree. I don't know if it's because that specific type of transwoman is prolific online. Sexual kicks are far easier to be had online, than they are in real life, one assumes.

But, to me, it doesn't matter. The fact that there is significant cohort who are forcing people to accommodate their fetish is enough.

They are getting complacent, too. So the narratives are becoming more candid. Jealousy, lust and misogyny.

It's an horrific combination.

I am always struck afresh about how much sex is motivation for a lot of this. If not all of it.

I have yet to go onto any 'trans' person's twitter account and not see links to fetishism, anime or weird sex sites in their feed or profile or photos. Alot of the trans fan club are the same. It is all very eerie.

I am always struck afresh about how much sex is motivation for a lot of this. If not all of it.

I have yet to go onto any 'trans' person's twitter account and there are many links to fetishism, anime or weird sex sites in their feed or profile or photos. Alot of the trans fan club are the same. It is all very eerie.

As some wit put it on twitter: progressives will be trans allies in the tweets, transphobes in the sheets.

Ahh. I've seen that in shorthand form and couldn't work out what it meant.

There's a recent tweet by a TIF complaining that gay men don't want her (!).

I've seen that too. She was quite convinced that she could be the gay man of their dreams (despite being pissed off that she always had to be the 'bottom').

My occasional wanderings into Datalounge led me to conclude that gay men find the idea of female genitalia, however modified, exceptionally offputting.

I am always struck afresh about how much sex is motivation for a lot of this. If not all of it.

Evidence 'the legendary tantrums when she was an infant and refused to wear dresses to parties, the rejection of dolls, the enthusiasm for joining the soccer team at school'. So is every woman who doesn't wear dresses to parties actually a transman? If so, we're going to lose a lot of the female population!

That description fits every member of my family (well, actually DP and DS1 haven't ever tried a party dress if I'm honest - although both have worn them for fancy dress) except for my youngest son. I can see there's gonna be some changes around here :P

Back in the day I found reading trans forums (fora?) eye opening. The sheer number of admiring male ‘allies’ joining the forums to show their appreciation for men dressed as women was fascinating. I assume they were all gay men in denial tbh - and wanking off over ‘girls’/ men in dresses allowed them to remain in denial. Or maybe they are indeed a subset of gay men who prefer men pretending to be women. As above though - totally only in it for a quick shag (if not just using the sites as gay porn but pretending it was straight porn) definitely no long term relationships. The term ‘allies’ makes me smile, as ten years ago a trans ally was definitely a pretend straight man that was just looking for a gay shag with a transwoman.

There's a market for chicks with dicks, but not the reverse as far as I know (Buck Angel seems to have been more of a novelty?). Also the clientele are probably looking for sexual encounters rather than long-term romantic partners.

And as the number of trans people increases, are the number of people with such specialist tastes going to increase as well?

Contrast homosexuality: as more women came out as lesbian in the 1970s, say, there was more demand for lesbian partners but also more supply.

There's a recent tweet by a TIF complaining that gay men don't want her (!).

I suspect that all the well-meaning people giving this Australian girl unconditional love and tolerance have not warned her about the very hard road that lies ahead. Just because people use your preferred pronoun does not mean that they will actually see you as the sex you imagine yourself as.

As some wit put it on twitter: progressives will be trans allies in the tweets, transphobes in the sheets.

Can a girl in her mid teens comprehend the consequences of sterilization? Who will be her future sexual/romantic partners? Gay men or straight women who hanker after female genitalia

I know sterilisation is frequently mentioned here as the ultimate horror, but in all honesty I don't think it the worst. Those who have drug treatments might face all sorts of horrific future side-effects and the surgery, for those who do change their minds (and even for many who don't) can be seen as producing mutilated genitals with limited sexual function.

Also - to be honest I see potential sexual / romantic partners likely being those who have a fetish for trans genitalia. This is common in porn and a special service in prostitution.

From the Guardian linked by Assigned:

Evidence 'the legendary tantrums when she was an infant and refused to wear dresses to parties, the rejection of dolls, the enthusiasm for joining the soccer team at school'. So is every woman who doesn't wear dresses to parties actually a transman? If so, we're going to lose a lot of the female population!

'watched an episode of ABC’s Australian Story about a young woman who felt trapped in the wrong body and began the process of transitioning, she turned to her mother and said calmly: “That’s me.”'' So media.

Can a girl in her mid teens comprehend the consequences of sterilization? Who will be her future sexual/romantic partners? Gay men or straight women who hanker after female genitalia?

State of this.

No fucking mention of breast binding and sterilisation, I note.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/23/a-teenager-transitions-and-tolerance-and-unconditional-love-pay-off

#PeakGuardian

Just in case it's not been clear, when perfectly has swapped from switch mode to bait mode and made one of their modest proposals* they've typically had the following characteristics:

1. they're unworkable; and
2. because of 1) any attempt at enforcement would provide endless material for "it's literal genocide against trans people".

I cannot believe that's been someone posting in good faith.

But on the positive side, this series of threads has been a great example of facts-based versus faith-based arguments.

• only made in the spirit of reasonableness, no other reason

I was involved with 2nd wave feminism and with gay rights activism in the late 70’s and 1980s. The number of men-and women- prepared to throw women, particularly lesbians, under buses was breathtaking, even then.

Even before the T emerged in its modern manifestation the gay boys who ran the movement ranged from those who were outright misogynists who hated women to those who simply ignored lesbians. There were precious few who acknowledged lesbians, let alone cared about the oppression they faced as lesbians and as women. Yet they are all over trans. Funny that.

The LGBT movement should rename itself as the "Women (and the odd gay man)'s Movement" (with Women meaning transwomen obviously)

a 19-year-old teenager