Follow on thread III - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

Though someone did try to pretend male people and lesbians were one and the same. So maybe that argument was made and I missed it.

Obviously if a person actually passes as a woman noone would know? I don't think anyone argued that.

@BatShite:

By actual men, I mean men, not women and transwomen. At the end of the day, if a transwoman is legally female, identifies as female and looks female, there's no issue - you won't even realise you're sharing facilities with a transwoman. Seriously.

No, it is factually incorrect to refer to someone who is legally female as 'male'.

No, it is factually incorrect to assert that a male (denoting biological sex) human being is a female (denoting biological sex) human being because that male human being feels and dresses like a woman.

And of course, pointing out that 98% of sexual assaults are committed by male human beings is painting women as "vulnerable" and "inferior," even though this is the objective reality of the situation.

Oddly enough, I've never felt the least bit threatened by lesbians in women's restrooms, changing rooms or locker rooms. That probably to do with those pesky objective facts that lesbians are female human beings who do not commit 98% of sexual assaults.

@SophoclesTheFox

You referred to males being allowed in female facilities, suggesting that transwomen are male when they're not.

And feminism is supposed to be the advocation of equal treatment between the genders.

Noone is criticizing all men.

We are not suggesting they are superior, we are stating they commit pretty much all the violent sexual crime. I know these facts are very irritating for everyone but we are going to keep stating them.

Indeed.

An actual man could run into the women's toilets/changing rooms and sexually assault a woman. There is, in general, a lack of genuine safety in women-only spaces.

He could. But making this even easier for him..is quite silly I would say.

@birdsdestiny:

I'm not denying that almost all (reported) violent sexual crime is perpetrated by men. But that doesn't mean that we should be criticising all men, because sexual offenders are very much a minority of the population.

We are not suggesting they are superior, we are stating they commit pretty much all the violent sexual crime. I know these facts are very irritating for everyone but we are going to keep stating them.

An actual man could run into the women's toilets/changing rooms and sexually assault a woman. There is, in general, a lack of genuine safety in women-only spaces.

@BatShite:

I've already covered this in my previous response to birdsdestiny.

@birdsdestiny:

What we need to do is introduce harsher sentences for men who sexually assault women. But if we focus gender differences, then we're suggesting that one gender is superior to the other. Which isn't true, because one cannot exist without the other.

No, it is factually incorrect to refer to someone who is legally female as 'male'.

Are you suggesting that men do not attack women in vast numbers, that men are usually much stronger than women also? Of course women are vulnerable. In an ideal world we would not be. Unfortunately, biology and the real world dictate this for us and its not a choice. If it was, so any women would not be attacked by men would they..

I can't even begin to start with we are painting ourselves vulnerable. We must tell those women who are raped and sexually assaulted to just say " but we are equal" and I am sure it will all stop.

Also, you're painting yourselves as vulnerable. Not a smart move. Feminism is about equality between men and women - we women are equal, not vulnerable, as being vulnerable suggests we are inferior. And we aren't.

Also, if a transwoman passes as a woman, then what is the problem? You won't even realise they're trans.

SophoclesTheFox

This is ridiculous. If a transwoman feels like a woman, looks like a woman, and is legally a woman, then she's a woman. Calling transwomen 'men' is factually incorrect and is clearly ideological bias.

Puresummer

Exactly what rights are trans women being denied?

"It's up to the particular women who are there in that situation to decide whether they will let a transwoman in based on the particulars of the situation"

Or the law, like every other situation. We don't operate via mob rule in this society, we use legislation.

Either the exemptions will be strengthened (VERY unlikely I think), or they'll continue as they currently are - with exemptions granted only under extreme cases. Toilets are not extreme cases.

But please, keep pretending that somehow you get to be gatekeepers of our toilets, denying transwomen entry based on whims or your decisions. No - we need this settled legally one way or the other. And hopefully it will be legally settled soon.

Done with this place. I disagree with self-ID, but again this comes down to banning legitimate transwomen with GRC/disphoria from toilets, or leaving it at the whims of others, rather than the law - it's ridiculous. Good luck with your campaigns to reduce minority rights, while pretending that you're somehow defending minority rights (cue comments on the Roma community, a patriarchal community where women are kept separate in spaces as they are "unclean" to men, and an attempt to dress that up as somehow a positive for them rather than a patriarchal abuse that we should be stopping if people here were real Radical Feminists. But no, we get to sympathy-troll and use their submission to the patriarchal system as a way of backing up OUR ability to deny minorities rights, so whahay right?)

I hope we don't lose on Self-ID, but if we do it's because people around here couldn't stop there and wanted to go much further in denying transwomen rights, therefore poisoning people against their initial legitimate concerns - when you're teaming up with right wing Christians and gender essentialists, when you're saying things like "OH WOW I AGREE WITH THE EXPRESS!" and conservative MPs who are more anti-trans than pro-women, you've soiled yourself.

Done with this place. Good luck to all the nicer women around here who genuinely are trying to address the issues with the self-ID aspect of the GRA consultation. Don't let the loudmouthed transphobes with agendas to grind speak for you too loudly, or don't be cowed by them. They're toxic.