Labour MP Jess Phillips being attacked on Twitter for her reasonable approach to gender bill

I think you might have misread my post FloraFox.

But anyway, it does illustrate how misunderstandings happen all over the place when "start a fight" posters start doing their thing.

saga you and I have already had this conversation. A few days ago.

Where I said:

Right, for the benefit of sagamartha, Men who are transgender are not all the same.

Transsexuals who have gender dysphoria have peoples sympathy and compassion.

Autogynephiles, chancers and predators are the problem.

And I reiterated, for the purposes of that thread, that I was addressing the second group.

Where I also said to you:

No-one with the slightest amount of information thinks that transgender men are all the same.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3078526-To-be-shocked-at-the-sheer-amount-of-hatred-and-ignorance-about-transpeople-on-mumsnet

You know it, I know it and anyone who can read knows it.

I know you have an entirely different agenda to me and you have my sympathy for your personal viewpoint.

As I’ve said to you before, this isn’t about individuals.

We will continue to disagree, I am sure. But it’s a bit of a waste of time attributing things to me that you know I don’t think. Or say.

You just seem to be in permanent "start a fight" mode.

That's a very goady statement, almost like you're trying to start a fight.

Datun has done an excellent job in persuading many people over time on MN as seen from many "now I get it" posts. I don't think she needs any tips from the tone police.

sagamartha Go back and read the statement again, you sound like you are being disingenuous. The people currently running a smear campaign against Linda Bellos are using a similar tactic.

But anyway, well done sagamartha. Another thread that you're hoping to tip over into a fight.

sagamartha and one that is shared with a number of people, not just here on Mumsnet.

AGP is a strange and frankly creepy illness.

XX = Female
XY = Male
Intersex = whatever works for the individual
Transexuals are not intersex

That's it. There's the fundamental, in your face, harsh reality, biology.

No amount of wishing, hoping, bullying, harassing and violence makes it otherwise.

I think she possibly also has a fundamental view that it takes more than cutting someone's dick off and giving them some pills to make a woman. A view many of us share. I'm personally happy to be convinced that that's possible though if someone could just define 'woman' in a way that includes that.

Until she's shouting 'die bitch' at people who disagree though we'd have to say she's NOT as bad as transactivists wouldn't we?

Then how is it that the rest of us seem to get that she's saying that because there's a bad element among trans activists, indiscriminate access to women's spaces will carry unacceptable risks?

Why does her "some" have to become your "all"?

Nope.

Some autogynephiles will go on to have surgery. Because it is the ultimate in becoming a woman. Having ‘sex as a woman’ is the pinnacle.

Actually, my reading of that post was that Datun said you couldn’t assume “bottom surgery” was a definitive indicator of dysphoric TIM (vs AGP) because some AGP TIM would take it that far. Which is quite different from what you asserted...

Datun said that she believes that even those transwomen who undergo surgery are fantasists who need a man as a prop. It seems like a fundamental view she has.

Datun has a fundamental view that transwomen are fantasists who are sexually excited by being seen as female. Is that the same view of activists on here?

Your posts say you're gender critical but all I see from your posts across many threads is misrepresentation like this and continual "you're wrong" statements.

Assuming you want to persuade people of something, wouldn't it be best to keep to factual stuff and not tell people they're wrong all of the time? You just seem to be in permanent "start a fight" mode.

Piss poor attempt to smear Datun Saga. Would love to see you debate her though. Go on go on, we will bring popcorn

Datun has a fundamental view that transwomen are fantasists who are sexually excited by being seen as female. Is that the same view of activists on here?

saga, now you know that’s not true.

Autogynephiles are “fantasists who are sexually excited by being seen as female.”

Datun has a fundamental view that transwomen are fantasists who are sexually excited by being seen as female. Is that the same view of activists on here?

sagamartha
It's great isn't it? Datun and most of us believing in fundamental biology and science - a woman is a woman and a transgender woman is a transgender woman.
And we keep on believing this despite all these activists people popping up and telling us we're wrong. Funny that.

I completely agree, I am fundamental in my views.

And you know all the reasons why!

Although I agree that having genital surgery demonstrates a certain level of commitment, I don’t think it’s that simple

The man will become a ‘prop’ in their fantasy

There's never any middle ground with you. You are as fundamental in your views as some of the transactivists are in their views.

Although I agree that having genital surgery demonstrates a certain level of commitment, I don’t think it’s that simple.

Some autogynephiles will go on to have surgery. Because it is the ultimate in becoming a woman. Having ‘sex as a woman’ is the pinnacle.

They may even have sex with a man. Whilst basically remaining heterosexual. The man will become a ‘prop’ in their fantasy.

As far as I'm concerned if you're a bloke, in a dress, with no intention of having your balls chopped off, you're a transvestite. Good luck to you, away you go. Some are gay, some are straight and some are bisexual.

If you're a bloke in a dress and you are seriously considering having your bollocks chopped off, you're a pre-op transsexual. You need careful counselling and your psychological conflict with your body may or may not be resolved.

If, genetically, you are a bloke, but you have had your bollocks chopped off voluntarily, you are a transexual.

Transgender is a new and fucked up concept I will not seriously entertain. Especially with gender stereotyping so rigid that it harks back to the 20th Century.

Why the hell can't men just be allowed to wear what they want - dresses, make-up, high heels. They can be as feminine as they want to be.

Because for many of them they don’t want to be known as a man who dresses as a woman. They want to be known as a woman because it turns them on.

It’s addictive, compulsive and all consuming.

Transwomen are trans. They are not women.
Why the hell can't men just be allowed to wear what they want - dresses, make-up, high heels. They can be as feminine as they want to be.

The notion of gender self-identification is dangerous as it eliminates all the protection that women have and need.
Sex offenders and perverts will have completely free access to women's spaces and we will not be allowed to challenge them

There’s a condition called Body integrity identity disorder (BIID), which is a psychological disorder. Many of you will have heard of it I am sure, and it can be present at an early age if patients are to be believed. An example is a burning desire to be an amputee, which stays with them all thru life. Do you remember the surgeon in Scotland who performed an elective amputation on a man with this psychological condition to prevent him from resorting to dangerous DIY or staging an accident. Since then it’s impossible in the UK to have a healthy limb amputated because the owner wants its removal. They are sexually attracted to amputees, though apparently wanting to be an amputee themselves is not primarily driven by sexual desire but more to do with identity. Extract below.

Therefore if BIID is a psychological disorder, then it could be said that Trans is too.

extract
“Described for the first time in 1977 as apotemnophilia, BIID was originally thought to be a psychological disorder characterized by sexual arousal associated with desire to be an amputee.

“It actually sounds a lot like another condition which we already do recognize called gender identity disorder ― where, for example, people are born as a male, but feel they're really a woman trapped in a man's body,” said Dr. Michael First, a professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University in New York City, who has been studying this rare condition since 1999. Typically it's more common legs than arms, there are people who want bilateral amputations, and I actually know of someone who has achieved that," he added. These people don't feel that it's a limb that needs to be removed because it's ugly and defective in any way, they just feel like it's extra. They just feel like it's not right having it there.”

Well it's like any of these things. 10,000 people say 'die bitch/n/dyke/whatever' on social media. 100 of them go to some shit rally/protest/march. 10 of them fester and plot attacks and 1 actually shoots someone. But it's all part of reinforcing the worldview of that one. That's why it's illegal.

Two years ago I would have happily acknowledged that a man can turn into a woman and I wouldn't have dreamed of misgendering someone. The scales have well and truly fallen from my eyes.

Surely one dead female MP (Jo Cox) is already one too many? These threats are being made in a world where that already happened. They are beyond the pale and the people making them should be prosecuted.