Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

How do TRA respond to suggestions of sleeping with other trans women? After all, if they identify as lesbian then they shouldn't refuse another transwomen for being trans right?

I shared last week's article on Facebook but I did not have a single response. I think some people are still scared to say anything.

"comfortable" camp persona for them to inhabit like gay men" I'm told that camp gay men are not very welcome amongst gay men and that is one reason why homosexual transsexual so.rn, that is women born gay boys who transitioned as young adults find being trans women is better for them. They, and other gay men. are not attracted to camp men. So I am told.

I really cannot understand how the cotton ceiling exists (obviously I don't doubt it does). But really how are women still being pressurised into sex with anyone? It feels like we are going backwards so fast!

Helena: as with everything else in transactivism, it's completely illogical. After all, if transwomen want to sleep with women, then there are far more heterosexual women out there than lesbians. You're more likely to have success with a heterosexual woman - given that you are biologically male - than you are with a lesbian. So what's the problem? Could it be simply be an old-fashioned male hatred of women who refuse to sleep with men?

There is a definite need to focus on those points that make people go WTF.

I'd also be curious as to how bisexual people feel actually. I can't help feeling that the angrier end of the TRA would be quite difficult to be attracted to because raging narcissism isn't exactly a turn on.

Yet overweight people have to accept that people might not be attracted to them.

Why cant these trans activists accept that women who are lesbians do not want to sleep with them Because it is not their sexual orientation.

I can just imagine the trans activists objecting if an 18 stone woman accused them of prejudice if they didnt want to sleep with her because of her weight.

Yet they want to deny lesbians their sexual preference.

Going back a bit in the thread to the stuff on the cotton ceiling, I think one of the reasons the transactivists bang on so much about this (aside from the obvious old-as-time misogynistic trope of "all lesbians need is a good bit of dick to sort them out") is that they know it's one of the points (along with the transing of children) where ordinary people go "what the fuck?"

Because you don't need elaborate theorising about class analysis or gender as a social construct to see how bat shit it is. All you need is the recognition that for almost all human beings a sexual relationship with some one involves being drawn to both their personality and their body - their biologically sexed body. The majority of us have a sexual preference which involves wanting sexual contact with either penises or vulvas/vaginas but not both. And our reaction on being told we ought to like the other set of genitals in order to demonstrate our open-mindedness - well, that reaction goes well beyond a quiet intellectual demurral and straight into a visceral "fuck, no!"

(NB I'd be interesting to know what bisexual people feel - I can quite imagine someone who was bi saying "well, I like penises, but not in a frock thank you very much." Because personality matters too, and also the way your particular culture constructs and maintains beliefs about sexual attractiveness and behaviours/clothing.)

Agree MissHavisham; the sort of angry TRAs who we are seeing at the moment strike me as the type of people who would very easily misconstrue even entirely innocent glances; you know the type, the angry gits who shout "what you looking at" if you've had the misfortune to glance their way when you're actually looking for the bus!

"It's truly astounding how society can on one hand withhold sterilisation from a competent adult, while promoting it for young children"

EXACTLY.

The mindset isn't about equality, it's about special privilege, domination and exemption for rules. So TRAs would argue that it is good and right that women not be allowed safe spaces or women only sports or women only discussion, trans women must rightly be centred and dominate and all should revolve around them because this redresses the disadvantage conferred on them.

Actually it satisfies the need to be more powerful and increasingly to punish women for being women. The narrative and strategies are ones used by abusive men.

Non consensual intimacy btw is a very good way to put it in that article. I keep thinking about being in a communal shower or changing room with the thugs that attacked Maria and threatened and intimidated one of their own female followers for daring to speak out of turn. Who would want to be the one who caught their eye or was misinterpreted as in any way slighting them, especially when they feel powerful and supported by law to dominate that space? I certainly would not want to make myself vulnerable by undressing anywhere near them.

@HelenaDove your poor niece she must be so confused!

My best friend who's a drag queen hit peak trans when he clashed with trans activists trying to ban drag queens from Pride. Apparently they are making fun of trans people

Sparticus. thats horrific that she had to go through that.

There is no way a trans woman can understand or relate to the fear of getting pregnant when you dont want to be.

In the past ive been on the Pill Norplant Depo and Mini Pill I felt the least secure on the Mini Pill. I still ended up running a pregnancy test when i was on that just in case.

Why dont the medical proffession listen to women

My young niece was sympathetic to the trans activists She went to Pride last year.

She then identified as non binary and bisexual. She didnt go to Pride this year. She told me that bi people wernt going to be made to feel welcome.

She now identifies as a lesbian.

I dont know how she feels about the trans activists now or if she knows about what happened last week. She spends a lot of time on Twitter so its likely she knows.

She did seem very confused for a while a few years back.

Shes 22.

And in my late 40's with horrendous peri-imenopausal symptoms my GP refused to give me HRT. I had to wait until I was 2 years post periods to fit the criteria for officially in menopause! Totally ridiculous!

That video is crazy, I can't have been the only one shouting at the screen.

He feels bad because he doesn't feel he can be who he is. Show him fabulous men who wear dresses, take him to cities where gay men walk around in the streets holding hands, buy him tickets to drag shows and tell him again and again that he's free to be whoever he is and whoever he is is perfect and loved just the way he was born.

It's truly astounding how society can on one hand withhold sterilisation from a competent adult, while promoting it for young children

DH and I can't be the only ones told to go away & think about it til DS2 was at least 18 months by our GP when we made an appointment about DH getting a vasectomy because we'd completed our family. Two grown adults, of sound mind and with kids already 'banked'.

such drastic medical intervention and treatment (surgery/powerful drugs) that transitioning requires, should be respected and supported because "it's what the child wants"
I asked about sterilisation a few times until my early 30s and was refused.

It's truly astounding how society can on one hand withhold sterilisation from a competent adult, while promoting it for young children.

And in some cases it's homophobia: look at all the posts in AIBU about whether a little boy should wear tights, or a dress? The underlying fear is that he's gay. And the abuse meted out to lesbians is worse & all the more so because lesbians are historically so invisible - there's no "comfortable" camp persona for them to inhabit like gay men

We don't allow children to drive, have tattoos/piercings, buy alcohol or tobacco etc because we need to protect them from making immature and perhaps dangerous choices. I strongly believe in children's rights and children's rights to have their voices heard. I've been a children's advocate in the family courts for years and feel passionately about their voices and choices. But the current situation re trans children terrifies me. THEY ARE CHILDREN FFS!

And I'm going to add (probably get flamed) that for some parents having a transgender child seem to be a bloody fashion statement rather than a genuine support for their children's welfare. Let them live how they like and make the huge decision about whether or not to transition when they have the maturity to make that decision.

I've just seen this fantastic video on another thread. It's a must see.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3031421-Really-important-video-on-detrasitioned-child

^Agree totally sandwiches. It bothers me that many of the radical activist crowd are arguing that children should be given drugs if they identify as trans (no matter what parents advise and without having to see mental health professionals) and that child protection should protect trans children from parents if the child identifies as trans and the parents call for sanity.

Does anyone know their figures for children transitioning?

Returning to the issue of children transitioning. My professional background is in child protection/family court system. Working as both a children's Social Worker and a Children's Guardian one of my duties under The Children Act 1989 was to establish "the ascertainable wishes of the child concerned (considered in light of it's age and understanding) - Children Act 1989 1.15.

What this means in practice is that whilst the court has to seriously consider the child's wishes and feelings when deciding what action is to be taken, these wishes and feelings need to be understood in the light of it's AGE AND UNDERSTANDING. So for example a child wants to return to it's violent abusive parent but the court knows that despite this being what the child wants this action would not be in the child's best welfare interests.

It's similar to using the Gillick competence test to establish whether or not a child is of the maturity and understanding to make significant decisions about it's life regardless of their chronological age.

As such it has astounded me that society, in general, seems to think that allowing such drastic medical intervention and treatment (surgery/powerful drugs) that transitioning requires, should be respected and supported because "it's what the child wants". It totally ignores the general view that children are legally minors and that until they have reached the chronological age of majority adults, and sometimes the state, have to intervene.

I am completely sympathetic to genuine gender dysmorphic people, also those who wish to live their lives by whatever gender. However the longer term impact on children and young people being allowed to transition very early on is not going to end well IMHO.

Just to be clear I am not in favour of gender identity being simply a matter of emotional or intellectual choice and agree with the majority of you who are highlighting your concerns about the GRA. But the issue of children transitioning is an absolute time bomb.

I actually found myself discussing today, after DS and two friends were assaulted by a drunk man (DS not badly, 1 boy seriously) the notion that men ought to pay more taxes. It was a violent MAN who attacked them. He cost the NHS. 4 police to subdue him, take statements. Court time. 2 nights in cells.

I've said this quite frequently - on message boards and IRL. The outrage it attracts - from people (men and women) that the "good" men would be unfairly penalised. Oh the poor menz.

My theory is that if all men had to pay 1 or 2% more in income tax, the pressure from the men who are not violent, would start to change models of masculinity so that it would no longer be unmasculine to be non-violent.

Our problem is the limited range of models of masculinity, and the emphasis on competition, violence, being higher status, beating all other men. And of course, the central definition of a proper man:

That in no way whatsoever is he anything even reminiscent of, whispering of, a woman.

I struggle to pick a single peaktrans moment for me; I think it was more of a gradual realisation that I was teaching my DC one thing (that they could do whatever they want, to ignore the silly people who said x was a girls/boys toy, that there were no jobs which were for men or women only) and yet the trans agenda was merrily claiming that children who didn't conform...were trans. It was like hang on, no this is bollocks. I don't want my kid hearing that a girl who like cars is actually a boy, wtf!

I think the transing of children was definitely what made me sit up and pay attention, which is why I think it's such a big issue.

Actually the other one was someone posting stats on the number of trans people who are autistic (or vice versa) and when I thought about how that could be the case and what would drive that correlation it made me even more aware of how stereotype and rule driven it was.

Due to not being sterilised when i was younger i then developed an irrational fear of becoming pregnant. I just do not want children and know i would never cope with motherhood Its just not for me. I dont want to derail so wont bang on but women do absolutely need safe spaces where they can discuss things like this and other subjects

Helena I just wanted to take you up on this because I think it is as equally important as motherhood. I think that any woman of reproductive age is reminded of the materiality of the body whether or not they become mothers. For some, it is avoiding pregnancy (in the context of a misogynistic medical system that mostly refuses to sterilise women even if they plead) that is the issue. I know someone who suffered terribly with menstruation. She begged and begged for a hysterectomy and was adamant that she did not want children, but they only offered her the pill (even though she had risk factors). Eventually she was given a hyster, and about three months later ended up having most of her liver removed because of growths from a cancer that was likely exacerbated by the pill (sorry if I have not got the medical details 100% in this). She could not opt out of any of that by declaring herself 'male', although likely she'd have got the hyster earlier than she did...