Feminist Pub XVIII, in which the Bluestocking greets the first signs of spring with a glass of something soothing

Define 'slated' too. You will get views and assumptions challenged on here of all places (I myself have used the phrase 'wrong place at the wrong time' of victims).

For instance, what makes boys' shoes ugly? Why, if boys wear them, should you feel sorry for girls also wearing them? Why is practicality considered ugly? Allowing that, why should ugly take precedence in such an important matter? Shoes are a major unsung advance of civilisation, they are very important! As we see when the fashion of the time dictated the wearing of those silly ballerina pumps that you can't walk half a mile in (ballet dancers typically go through multiple pairs in one performance just fyi!).

None of that is to challenge you, but the assumptions society puts in place.

Clarks shoes - it's the marketing with the toys inside them that really annoys me. And velcro. If you insist that it's your god-given right to paddle through mud pools and cut grass and everything else in your school shoes all the gung stick to the velcro and that's it. I'm training DC to wear shoes with laces now. I don't care how many times we have to retie DS2's shoes ... (Though we did have one pair of Clarks shoes that had one velcro strap snapped in about 2 weeks. How is that possible!?)

I see, Still. And was it Sera who disagreed with you previously?

Still Lost i watched this too. I remember the murder of Dawn Ashworth being on the news and all the DNA stuff being on the news in the 80s too.
Agree "the victim of the crime is never in the wrong place" If Mrs Ashworth didnt say this as a direct quote it could be that the scriptwriters decided to address the insidious victim blaming that is STILL ingrained in society today.

Did anyone see the ITV drama tonight about the Colin Pitchfork case ? The first case which involved DNA evidence?

Two points of interest - if it's true the funding for it was due to a direct intervention from Margaret Thatcher following a conversation the scientists working on it had with Dennis.

Secondly at the end the mother of one of his victims,Dawn Ashworth, said people had said her daughter had just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. She was vehement her daughter was not in the wrong place- it was her killer who was. I don't know if this is a true quote or just part of the script but it's worth saying - the victim of a crime is never "in the wrong place"

Up to you. It was a hassle my son managed at Primary school.

But why should she have to, when there are plenty of styles of shoe that could be made that are weatherproof? All the boys shoes for her age seem to be waterproof, none of the girls shoes are. Why? I don't understand why any child should be expected to change shoes when they arrive at school, and again at playtime, and at lunchtime, and again at home time when they could have practical shoes designed for them. Wellies just add another layer of hassle.

I recall getting slated in the past for mentioning I approved of school uniforms. I like them. I thought the girls at my son's school looked very smart in their kilts. Was slated for saying that too. On this part of the forum.

Oh, the "you" was MN in general? Not anybody here.

Thanks for clarifying.

But MsDragons couldn't she just wear wellingtons in wet weather? My son did.

Nothing in particular in this thread other than school uniforms, particularly ones which require girls to wear skirts , seem to elicit a degree of disapproval on Mumsnet.

"f you can set aside prejudices about enforced uniforms and private schools you may find a proper school uniform supplier will have a more robust and practical selection of gym clothing."

Which post was this responding to, Still?

Dd1 has sturdy lace up shoes, no problem, they're easy enough to find for teenagers, and even in upper primary I found plenty. Its young primary girls that seem only allowed Mary Jane styles. Without travelling 50 miles to get a more diverse shop or shopping online and risking a bad fit (both my DDS are awkward to fit, with stupidly wide toes) we have the choice in our town of Clark's or brantanos, neither of which have sturdy girls shoes in black (school uniform colour), they are all Mary Jane styles. I'm not even slightly worried about her shoes lasting, she'll grow before they fall apart, what annoys me is the huge hole at the top meaning that her feet get wet when it rains and cold in the winter. If we lived somewhere where it rained less, or where we had mild winters then i wouldn't care, but it annoys me that boys have warm dry feet and girls have cold wet feet with the choices available to us.

a light brown pair with little lizards on them
These would NEVER be marketed to girls here. Anything brown, or with any kind of non-fluffy animal, HAS to be for boys.

I'm not particularly conscious of any quality issues in girls' school shoes, it's the open tops that seem ridiculous for outdoor activities. Why would you want wet socks? Though I have heard parents of school aged children say that the girls' shoes don't last as long either.

We only have Clarks where I can try shoes on the DCs unless we travel about 45 minutes which seems excessive for shoes (at least, at the moment when they are outgrown about every 3 months). I have thankfully found that Kickers fit DS and those will at least for the moment work even if DD decides she has to wear dresses.

I don't think anyone has expressed anything for or against private schools here have they?

Girls do want to wear shorts outside school too. Cycling shorts with baggy t-shirts were fashionable when I was a preteen! Not sure that's likely to come back soon but you never know...

StillLost, I'm talking about non-school shorts, not school ones.

The approved uniform gym shorts for girls at my son's school were definitely not skimpy or tiny. If you can set aside prejudices about enforced uniforms and private schools you may find a proper school uniform supplier will have a more robust and practical selection of gym clothing.

I can remember my mum complaining similarly about Clarks when I was small so I don't know whether it's got worse or that's when the rot set in (or mum was unlucky!)

Sorry so much spamming! But Superfit sell in the UK as well. Might be worth looking for a stockist, although I expect they are £££. www.superfit.at/en/dealer-search

Yes Clarks have turned really crap this generation. I think we're all remembering where our parents shopped for shoes but they're nowhere near what they used to be. I used to get a choice of Geox, Clarks and Start Rite at our local independent place. The biggest brand here in Germany seems to be Superfit. They're fantastic and really really hardwearing, unisex shoe designs with different colours aimed at girls and boys.

I saw somebody on facebook the other day say they'd read that girls and boys have differently shaped feet Is that Clarks' latest great marketing con then?

Just start importing shoes www.deichmann.com/DE/de/shop/kinder/kinder-schuhe.cat See!

But, schools don't tend to have uniforms here, so there is no such thing as "school shoes" and the kinds of shoes you can buy in Britain for preschoolers seem to pervade all the way through school until the teens break into adult sizes and then of course it's whatever is in fashion.

Also slightly baffled. My DDs do terrible things to their school shoes... climbing, paddling, running through mud. And they last just fine.

The problem is that the whole country is obsessed with buying Clarks, which are really rather crap.

I will agree that sturdy sandals for girls are harder to come by.

And knee-length shorts. Don't get me started on shorts for girls. What fun to only sell tiny short shorts for girls and then blame them for looking "slutty".

I'm in Germany and noticed the other day when I was buying DS shoes that it's very different here, each brand had a few styles of shoe which were produced in various colours, pink and purple for girls and blue and green for boys, both with black or white. DS in the end after looking at a black and blue pair which lit up with police lights (!) went for a light brown pair with little lizards on them, which would have suited a boy or a girl.

There are some "pretty" party type shoes but they seem the exception here rather than the rule.

Yes it is rather bewildering that manufacturers don't think that maryjanes and other styles of shoes traditionally designed for girls should be able to withstand normal wear and tear as they do for boys' shoes