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Original poster

Brooks Newmark "Entrapment"

326 replies

FloraFox · 29/09/2014 08:15

There doesn't seem to be any suggestion "she" asked him to send her the photo, is there?

So simply being an attractive young woman and complimenting national politicians on twitter is "entrapping" men into sending photos of their genitals?

OP posts:
Original poster
FloraFox · 03/10/2014 10:48

why what is your version of events based on?

In this country, we have a very serious problem of sexual abuse by people in power being hidden for years. A large part of this problem is caused by the hostile reception given to people who make complaints and a culture of closing ranks by other people in power.

There is a limit to what we can do, as individuals, to combat the closing ranks. As individuals however we contribute to the hostile environment in our responses to allegations. Individuals do this by minimising the seriousness of the behaviour of the men and in the way they characterise the behaviour of the women involved. The "red-top version" (so much snobbery in this description, but that's for another thread) is the only version available since Newmark has not given a proper account of what he did. Anything else is mere speculation about what the journalist might have done. In these cases, the speculation is usually coloured by misogynistic attitudes about women lying or leading men on or men being unable to control themselves and that is certainly present here. In this situation, the speculation is also coloured by distaste for the red tops and by the journalist's wrong but completely unrelated use of women's photographs without their consent, as well as a misunderstanding about the appropriateness of stings / entrapment. I believe that from a feminist perspective, we shouldn't contribute to a hostile environment. Guido Fawkes said this investigation was initiated because of rumours they had heard from young Tory activists. If there are real women out there who would like to come forward to talk about their experiences, they are hardly going to do so now given the atmosphere that surrounds this case. I wouldn't be surprised if Brooks Newmark regrets resigning, I'm sure he can't believe his luck at the support he's received.

Since some posters seem to have a problem holding more than one line of thought at a time, just to make it clear that even if she said "send me a picture of your c0ck" (which no-one has said she did), I still think his actions were an abuse of his position and a reflection of male entitlement.

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WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 03/10/2014 10:48

To clarify, if Sophie really had been Sophie then I think this would be perfectly valid. But Sophie wasn't. However, the thread has continued as if she were - as if she wasn't a journalist deliberately targeting someone and encouraging them.

WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 03/10/2014 10:46

Buffy Yes. Although the 'situations like this' causes an issue because the 'situation like this' is one where the victim wasn't a victim at all. That is why I don't agree that we should look at it in those terms. I don't think those terms apply precisely because the journalist'a actions have precluded us from drawing an equivalence with victim/abuser.

BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 10:40

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WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 03/10/2014 10:38

Why do you not have the moral integrity to acknowledge that your interpretation was based on a complicit tabloid's version of events?

BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 10:37

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WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 03/10/2014 10:36

Can I just say FF that that is what's so infuriating? When I ask you a question, like 'so sending him a bikini shot is irrelevant' you shift target. You've consistently squirmed out of acknowledging the facts were not as you first thought they were.

Original poster
FloraFox · 03/10/2014 10:31

Not one single piece of commentary has questioned whether Brooks Newmark has spoilt anything for all men. Funny that.

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WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 03/10/2014 10:30

Ok Buffy. As I've said before, I was out and happy to have added my thoughts and have FF prefer her red-top version. I only came back when I read the Saville bit. Can we agree then that thinking the entrapment muddies the waters IS NOT equivalent to excusing child abuse?

MyEmpireOfDirt · 03/10/2014 10:25

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Original poster
FloraFox · 03/10/2014 10:25

The opening question stated 'there's seems to be no suggestion she asked him to send the photo'. This is wrong

This has not actually been shown in any of the published accounts. For someone who seems to think this situation can only be discussed based on the precise facts of who did what first etc., you haven't been able to back this up.

Buffy What we disagree on is the extent to which his failure to meet the ethical standards society expects of senior people in positions of power crosses that line into actual abuse of that power.

What do you think makes this not an actual abuse of power? As I've said above, there's the issue of abuse of this individual but also the abuse of the power of his office to get sex generally. Do you think that is problematic from a feminist perspective?

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 03/10/2014 10:16

We're all nerds in our own areas Smile

BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 10:11

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BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 10:09

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YonicScrewdriver · 03/10/2014 10:04

"I don't want to get into epistemological discussions"

Yeah, ya do Wink

BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 10:00

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YonicScrewdriver · 03/10/2014 09:59

I found the Sarah West thread by searching "let women down"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2143560-AIBU-to-think-commander-Sarah-West-has-spoilt-this-for-all-women-now

CagedBird, were you on that or another SW thread talking about the power dynamics?

Flora has acknowledged that her initial post didn't have all the info - surely now we are talking about what we currently know of the case, as well as more generally on the issues?

I don't think anyone is stepping over the initiator thing - people have different views as to the extent this reduces how inappropriately he behaved (baseline being some level of inappropriateness, as acknowledged by BN himself in resigning)

BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 09:54

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BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 09:49

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MyEmpireOfDirt · 03/10/2014 09:49

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WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 03/10/2014 09:46

The sheer variety of reasons why BN not being the initiator can be ignored is impressive. My whole problem with this thread is that I find ignoring this dishonest. The opening question stated 'there's seems to be no suggestion she asked him to send the photo'. This is wrong and yet just about every perspective on this case steps over that as if it's a triviality. I am perplexed at why people are doing that. I am angry that believing that has relevance is akin to turning away from Jimmy Saville. It seems to me that the hypothetical is more important than the reality and that what people represent in terms of their class is more important than what they actually do as individuals. The only way I can explain this is by thinking that the motivation here is to discuss a pre-determined narrative and fit events to that as they can be found. This seems the most likely explanation is to why matters that don't fit are cast aside as unimportant.

YonicScrewdriver · 03/10/2014 09:45

"Yonic, it's not bollocks. Not a single person looked at that situation in the context of a person in a position of power engaging in sexual activity with a junior member in a shared workspace. Not one person."

If you look at the part of your post that I quoted and said was bollocks, it wasn't that part.

As Empire says, the threads were more about media coverage and SW as a representative of womankind, not about the situation itself. For the record, of course SW should have properly considered the power dynamic.

To take a current reversy case, there is a 23 year old female teacher who has rightly been lifetime banned from teaching for flirting and sexting a 17 year old male sixth former. - the additional law is in place there exactly because of power dynamics.

BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 09:38

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BuffyBotRebooted · 03/10/2014 09:32

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MyEmpireOfDirt · 03/10/2014 09:25

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