Am I wrong to let my daughter enjoy being girly then?

But pictish, would you also be happy to buy monters/guns/army stuff for a boy?

No one I think has said that girls can NOT wear any dresses or that they can't have pink stuff.
But one outfit so called 'girly' in a wardrobe is one thing. A wardrobe full of that stuff and more or less only that is another.

And no it won't transform her. But it will shape her beliefs as to what is OK to do.

Pictish, I think you're being a bit sensitive. No one is saying that wearing a pink dress will turn her into a simpering drip tomorrow.

this dress

OP, have you got my dd3 there? she has spent most of the summer in this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tu-age-6-girls-butterfly-summer-dress-with-belt-/221269543716?nma=true&si=dEm9g6rEp2TIoUjGJXJz04H9fPw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_78wt_958 dress getting up to her usual mischief, skating, cycling, playing in the mud etc. the amount of comments we've had about how she might ruin it (its washes up well btw) is unreal. dd3 doesn't always act 'girly' (whatever that may mean) but is the dd with the most dresses in her wardrobe. she is also the most likely to be instigating water fights etc.

she is who she is, and I will embrace that. they are indiviuals, and should be treated as such.

There's a difference between liking pink and sparkly stuff because that is what you really like and liking it because it has been fed to you constantly in subtle and non-subtle ways throughout your life. First one = fine, 2nd one = not fine. It's also worth noting that liking pink and liking mud are not mutually exclusive.

But anyway re. your DD, if she is happy, then just be happy for her. As long as she is never made to feel that girlworld is second best (and the idea that it is has never IM personal E come from feminists but from men who look down on "frivolity") then that is A-ok.

Feminism is two-pronged IMO: it seeks to give women the same opportunities & freedoms as men but also seeks to elevate the status of that which is traditionally considered to be feminine.

I am against ANY gender stereotype, whether it's for boys or girls.
And as people have pointed out before, there are plenty of stereotype for girls (the dinosaur with long long eye lashes) and there are plenty of stereotype for boys too (you know the war stuff, guns and camouflage type of stuff, even for 18 months old).

I want men and women to be treated as equal so I am against all stereotype and prejudice.
I think that very pink, glossy 'girly' clothes do reinforce the 'girly' stereotype of the passive little girl that says and does little but smile sweetly and looks good. So I am not fond of them at all.
I think that the 'boyish' clothes full of guns, battle, monsters etc.. reinforce the 'boyish' stereotype of the strong little boy that is always fighting and needing to prove he is the strongest. I am not fond of these either.

So I do consciously avoid them.
It's not about refusing to let a little girl being a girl and a little being a boy. It's about letting grow to be the people they can be rather than the one the society is steering them towards.
And let's be honest. At 5yo, you can say No to a child. You can dictate what they wear or not even if they 'really really' like such item of clothing. And as I see it, you can protect them a little bit from some (unsuitable) influence.

pictish I just saw your mention of TPBP on another thread from this morning

Nice coincidence!

My DD went through a phase of not dreaming of wearing trousers.

Do I get points?

People never write that their dd would never dream of wearing trousers and was always covered in glitter.

Maybe because that's considered to be the "norm" by a lot of people, and so not worthy of comment?

Judged? Children?

By whom?

My favourite book practically ever is The Paper Bag Princess by Robert Munsch.

It should be all about choice and not being judged. How sad that our DDs are already being judged at such a young age.

That's nice for you and your DD pictish.

Let your DD be who she wants to be.

Just don't imagine that who she wants to be, is in no way influenced massively by her culture and her peers.

This thread is just full of goady, antagonistic shite.

I have never seen feminists on FWR pour scorn on little girls or denigrate things considered "feminine" in our culture. I haven't had the impression that people are showing off about how their daughters don't like it. I have seen people talking about how their DDs are considered less "girly" because of it. Most feminists on FWR don't like the term "girly girl" as it suggests that "non-girly girls" are lesser sorts of girls and that's a very damaging message for children. That's not showing off.

My DD loved pink things from about 2 til 7, she wanted to be on "team girl", there's no way that it was a choice she made free from any societal influences. Everywhere you look, pink things are labelled for girls. After 7, pink became something associated with babies so was promptly dropped. Again, a choice not made in a vacuum but influenced by the world around her.

Oh, I totally agree that toys and clothes are depressingly stereotyped - I was just saying it is usually threads on those subjects where people are keen to show off about emphasise how much their daughter doesn't like girls clothes/toys.

Smoking - See, my girls aren't girly (though DD2 loves pink). I feel like there are always threads about how 'girly' is denigrated and I feel like yelling "My girls are just as much girls as yours. Why do you get to decide what it means to be a girl" (which is surely what the adjective girly is doing).

But I recognise that that is me projecting my own difficulties with the highly gendered environment my kids are growing up in.

As for toys, they are horribly stereotyped. As are clothes. DD2 would love a pink dinosaur t-shirt. A pink t-shirt with a normal dinosaur on it. Not a girly one with eyelashes. You know, just a dinosaur. Can you buy one? Of course not, because dinosaurs are a boy thing, so dinosaur t-shirts are boy colours. Red, blue, green.

If the clothing stops the girl doing things then it's a problem and unfair like some cultures/religions which dress girls in ways that mean they cannot ride bikes, worry about jumping into a puddle etc.

Btw I am talking about the extreme stuff here. The extra pink clothes, the frilly sparky dress, all in pink etc.
not about a dress that could've nice and cute.
Why on earth would you want to stop a little girl wearing a dress?

I have to say, at that age, I would have stirred her choices towards something else. And not bought any pinky, sparky clothes. The same way that I have refused to but 'boyish' clothes to the boys.
I would have let her buy the little Pony stuff but equally ensured she had some toys that were more gender neutral.

I would have done so because I believe that all these pre-conceived idea on what a little girl should be are reinforced by TV, ads, friends and society as a whole and I would want to 'push' the other way so later on when she can really decide, she can make a proper choice rather than one dictated by society.

penguins you are probably right, I do feel attacked because my daughter is stereotypically girly, likes wearing dresses etc.

And of course people are not boasting randomly, but it seems to me to come up a lot on threads about girls' clothing being impractical, girls toys and boys toys being stereotyped, things like that.

I actually don't think that's true. You do see lots of people emphasising the 'non girly' aspects of their girls. However, it is usually in response to something. Either dealing with a problem their child has experienced as a result. Or responding to a thread with the 'it's all innate' argument and trying to emphasise multi faceting personalities. I honestly can't think of a thread where someone randomly boasts about their daughter in the way described.

However, because of the denigration of all things designated as feminine in our culture, I think it's quite easy for a parent to feel attacked if their child does behave in those ways. And also, when posters talk about social conditioning, it is easy to translate that as having failed as a parent to 'protect' them from conditioning, which maybe can result in people over emphasising other characteristics.