Male feminists and porn

libertarianj are you going to respond to the questions I asked you upthread or are you just going to talk about me in the third person?

You know, I find the whole subject of so called "feminist porn" (that was a quote) pretty tedious. However, it does highlight the increasingly common phenomenon of co-opting the word feminist (or using feminist language) in order to repackage internalized sexism and sell it to women as something positive for us.

It's like that hideous word 'empower' - a word that mostly seems to be used to repackage the idea of acting like a male gaze sex object as something liberating for a woman to do.

It is such a load of bullshit.

It's reminding me of Basil's most excellent feministy lemon drizzle cake thread we had a while back

You may find you have to explain and justify that a bit better.

I mean, you just stated it.

As if it were something obvious.

I feel a thorough review of punctuation-related semantics is necessary before we can accept your usage, and ideally for as long as it takes to keep the discussion off the subject of the OP and the poor, poor men who just want to be free to watch their porn.

Thanks LRDY - you were quite right.

I put the phrase feminist porn in quotation marks because I was, um, quoting .

That's something that has occurred to me too Dervel. Maybe not just men though.

But the fact that porn is the expression is unlimited fantasy, unfettered by any other consideration except pleasure, and this is what emerges is worth considering.
If there wasn't something dark there in our attitudes surely porn would naturally be woman friendly and cuddly and equal? It wouldn't be a niche thing that needed to be sought out.

lib - no, I don't believe it does exist.

This has been explained.

derv - I think yes, there's probably something wrong with all of our attitudes to sex.

I wonder if perhaps as I have suspected for some time there is something wrong with a lot of men's attitude to sex itself? I think if that was picked apart and understood we might get somewhere. I believe porn reflects this central problem back at us, and were we to find a way to correct this, porn, if it even still existed would along with sex itself probably be perfectly fine and healthy.

I think there might be a pretty long wait.

One of the problems here is that,even if there is this niche of woman friendly, non exploitative, right on, Dworkin approved porn, how would be recognise it? How could we be sure?

I'm sure it is possible to have ethically produced diamonds, for example, but I won't wear a diamond until I can be absolutely sure that the one I buy is. No hardship- diamonds are a luxury item I can well do without. The same goes for porn. It is possible to live happy,productive, sexually fulfilled lives without it. It it also possible (gasp) to live a happy, productive life but not be sexually fulfilled!

In other words, a fluffy version of porn produced for men so that men can foist on their women. Then they can say that porn is okay because women do it too.

mmm it seems you have conveniently cherry picked one element that happens to involve men and interpreted in the most negative way possible. What about the stuff on the feminist porn awards link that was referenced, did you check that out? I only put up the wiki link in consideration for work place viewing

It's not like women don't enjoy sex so I'm not quite sure what anyone would gain from spitefully pretending to object to lovely, feminist-friendly porn if such a thing did exist? confused

but it does exist, your right you do need to improve your searching skills.
I get it though, even if you knew of it's existence you would never admit to it anyway. Otherwise most of the anti porn arguments used against men would start to go out of the window and that wouldn't do now would it?

Ah, shit.

You know what we're doing wrong? We're searching for porn all wrong.

Seriously who just types in 'porn' into a search engine. I think you'll find people tend to be a bit more specific about these things.

I explained it too, lib. Right upthread.

Don't disagree with her on third-wave, though. Or whenthe.

Kinda obvious isn't it?

It's not like women don't enjoy sex so I'm not quite sure what anyone would gain from spitefully pretending to object to lovely, feminist-friendly porn if such a thing did exist?

It's just that, given the structure of the society we live in, such an animal couldn't survive.

oh right you mean that bit up-thread where she slates third wave feminists and states how misguided they are? ok

that's not what you get when you type 'porn' into a search engine though. I would expect cuddly fluffy feminist porn to be high up there in the rankings if that was the mainstream, rather than the niche.

Yeah, that bit's upthread.

Which bit didn't you follow?

how women making porn for the enjoyment of other women has any bearing on what she claims is the higher status of men over women and the sexual hierarchy?

well she did acknowledge it, as she said it was niche market? otherwise what on earth was she referring too?

The porn industry involves trafficking and exploiting women and children for the profit of men.
I can't see how this can be compatible with caring about the welfare of women.

Oh, I thought it'd been explained.

Which bit didn't you follow?

I don't think she 'acknowledged' that there is 'feminist porn'. I think that's why she put it in the quotation marks.

I'm just guessing, of course. I wouldn't want to speak for her. It's just, that's a basic function of that much-abused punctuation mark.

I think the 'how does that have anything to do with' bit has been explained upthread, several times? confused

err no it hasn't, it's just been stated as a matter of fact. No logical explanation just assumptions.

and i didn't say she agreed with it, i said she acknowledged it...

Anyone who intends to produce or use pornography, but who wants it to seem nice and not nasty, is likely to call it "erotica". I don't think that necessarily makes it more benign, and perhaps it's less honest. Really I think Dworkin and MacKinnon did the world a disservice by having a campaign against "pornography" while leaving any questions about sexually-oriented material of other kinds unanswered. When does porn end and erotica begin (or vice versa)--who the hell knows? Is it just "If I like it it's erotica, anything else is pornography"?

I think the 'how does that have anything to do with' bit has been explained upthread, several times?

Btw, the quotation marks mean she doesn't agree. They're not for randomly scattering through phrases, they're for showing you mean to quote, not agree.

HTH.

Lots of feminists don't agree with pornography no matter how sparkly, cuddly, fair trady, consenting and pollyannaish it is.

but lot's of feminist do agree with it too

Feminism is about challenging the status quo and the sexual hierarchy. It is about questioning sex roles and shining a light on the all pervasive domination/submission dynamic that places men as higher status than women.

and how does that have anything to do with women making erotica for other women to enjoy?

Anyway, 'feminist porn' is a niche market drowning in the mass of violent hardcore misogynistic women humiliating abusive crap that makes up most porn - and this is the porn that most men consume.

ah so now you do acknowledge there is feminist porn! but is it really niche when you have masses of very popular erotic art sites like x-art, femjoy, joymii, met-art etc which are feminist approved and can be enjoyed by both men and women. There's nothing violent, misogynistic, humiliating, abusive about any of those sites. It's extreme porn which is a niche market. check out porn forums and search engines and you will see the most viewed threads/ popular searches are predominately softcore erotica.

And any woman who thinks she is making 'feminist porn' might like to think about the etymology of the word pornography.

Lots of feminists don't agree with pornography no matter how sparkly, cuddly, fair trady, consenting and pollyannaish it is. Porn is just filmed prostitution and so called 'feminist porn' is just the filmed version of the happy hooker.

Feminism is about challenging the status quo and the sexual hierarchy. It is about questioning sex roles and shining a light on the all pervasive domination/submission dynamic that places men as higher status than women. Filming that dynamic is not a feminist act.

Anyway, 'feminist porn' is a niche market drowning in the mass of violent hardcore misogynistic women humiliating abusive crap that makes up most porn - and this is the porn that most men consume.

I doubt the man mentioned in the OP is seeking out 'feminist porn'. And even if he did it still wouldn't be an act of solidarity with women to watch and wank to it.