Is feminism all about man hating?

If this moves into transgender territory, can we have a sweepstake on the number of pages by teatime? I will go for 36

To see how the various factions of feminism go at this subject hammer and tongs is illuminating.

No LeithLurker.

I'm saying it is about valuing and respecting women only spaces.

Radical feminist conferences don't exclude feminists - lots of women go who don't really identify as any 'type' of feminist and who want to learn what radical feminism is about. It is generally considered to be rude to go with the intention to disrupt though. I imagine that is true for most conferences, non?

Beachcomber: So your effectively saying it is about exclusivity and privilege.

I am not sure if such a thing exists but would a conservative feminist or a green feminist be excluded, they could be very disruptive, certainly not sign up to any consensus.

Good links Beachcomber and namechangeguy!

I know a lot of tranactivists like to make out that it is about excluding transpeople because they are trans.

But it isn't.

It is about radical feminist analysis which concludes that a biological woman (an adult female) and a MTF transperson are not exactly the same thing.

A position which strikes me as perfectly valid and logical.

Transactivists don't like this because they think that all women should accept that a MTFtransperson and an adult human female are exactly the same.

Mr Gin - sorry if I gave the impression my entire post was designed as a reply to you hence your need to thank me!? Polite as you are, I did take care to address you specifically in the paragraphs where I was responding to you specifically but think that you interpreted that as the entire post being directed at you despite strangely coy assertions that you're really not trying to make it all about you? I wasn't assuming you personally didn't do the crossing the road thing (although would have been a great example to give about recognising and acting appropriately in circs where you realise your privilege is in action to give upthread - perhaps you have other examples?)

Really interesting how you reacted to my post though. I think some men get defensive about feminism because they take it very personally - but then that comes back to ego and male pride and privilege - ironic when the female sex are most derided for being irrational, illogical, incapable of being objective.

Am now most puzzled as to what the purpose of your comment here was then:

"And if I could just comment on a post up thread... I know suggesting you cut some blokes testicles off is quite jokey, but if you read on some MRA site a jokey post about cutting some feminists tits off I think it'd probably be quoted in disgust."

"As for Hully's testicle post... Well you know I like Hully's posts so I know her style. It's just in the context of thread that touches on 'man haters' I think it's worth the effort to at least mention how these kind of things might be misread when taken out of context from both sides of the division. Whether you're a feminist reading a comment on an MRA site, or an MRA reading a comment on a feminist site ( I know MN isn't a feminist site but I hope you see what I mean )"

You seem to presume I know a lot about you (hence I guess the taking everything so painfully personally). I really don't. I don't know you like Hully's posts or know his/her style so your original reference was pretty disingenuous since you personally knew it to be a joke in the style of a poster you like. You assumed that everyone else on the post didn't know Hully's posts or his/her style and tried to imply that unless the rest of the posters on the thread leapt on his/her post and condemned it for sexism then....what? Maybe other posters took it in the same context you did, maybe they wanted to get on with the discussion. I'd be very interested to know if you can find a forum and website dedicated to hating men in the same way this one is dedicated to hating women (women aren't allowed to post there btw)? But even if you can it will be a drop in the ocean compared to the many and varied physical (stats on rape, DV etc) and virtual (online) examples of how many women-hating men are out there. Sadly it's a 'competition' that men will win every time. So yes, we can talk about and acknowledge there must be women out there who hate men BUT in the context of the evidence before our eyes, day in and day out, of how many men exist who hate women and how much power those men wield, I think those men-hating women are effectively sidelined and not give the opportunity to terrorise men to the degree that pay scales start to tip in the opposite direction, men start to curtail their freedom due to being fearful of being raped or assaulted by these women, men are being killed by their partners in the same numbers with the same frequency and so on and so forth. I think there are plenty enough women-hating men who will keep the men-hating women from getting anywhere to be honest. Which is why it always becomes such an academic discussion.

Ah but you see it isn't about excluding trans people. At all.

It is about having women only spaces in which to exchange on issues which affect women and which some women prefer to discuss in women only spaces.

Women only spaces, by definition, exclude people who are not biological women.

I'm not too sure what your position is, but it seems that you think it is 'hair splitting' to say that biological women and MTF trans are not exactly the same.

Either that or you don't think women should be allowed to have women only spaces in which to discuss women's issues.

Whatmeworry do you realise that a transwoman is more likely than not, a person with a penis and testes?

Oh the shock! A willy in a radical feminist conference. Eliminate! Eliminate!

That line says all one needs to know :o

Fwiw I buy into the idea that sex and gender are not the same thing. As de Beauvoir said, "one is not born, but becomes a woman". But then I'm a nasty old Liberal Feminist.....

I think it is really odd that there are so many people who are willing to argue that a transwoman and a biological woman are exactly the same. The mental gymnastics must be exhausting

No, its simple - society has moved on, most people in 2012 just aren't interested in the internal hair-splitting logic of Radical Feminism that makes them want to exclude transgender people, they just see anti-transgender hypocrites.

... and of course true

That's v funny NCG :o

This guy knows about privilege

I assume everyone here is over 18. If not, don't watch! (sweary language)

male privilege

male privilege

Whatmeworry do you realise that a transwoman is more likely than not, a person with a penis and testes?

I think it is really odd that there are so many people who are willing to argue that a transwoman and a biological woman are exactly the same. The mental gymnastics must be exhausting.

Whezo

Thanks for your reply. And I'd just say before I respond, I'm not attempting to make this thread all about MrGin or seeking a pat on the head. But it deals with, at least partly, with the question of why some men might get defensive around some feminists and a posters admission that she feels slightly sorry for some men in the face of feminism.

I'm obviously a man so can give ( only ) a male perspective.

The first point I'd make is you are making an assumption that I don't cross the road when I see a lone woman late at night ( or generally behave with humility ) . I can't remember a time in my adult life when I didn't do this tbh. And I'm neither a Buddhist or married to a woman who was abused in early life.

I doubt you will now afford me the same 'awesome'ness you give your dad for his similar actions. And I don't see it as awesome tbh, it's just what one does.

So it's a little patronizing to say the least that you firstly assume that I don't behave like that and then go on to say I have "a pretty limited capacity for empathy and imagination." and a lack of humility because of your false assumptions.

And again I think this is something relevant to the subject of this post. It's certainly a reoccurring scenario on MN. Why might men be defensive when discussing stuff with feminists ? Well here is a case in point.

And like I say I'm not saying this in order to get a pat on the head ( now that would be patronizing ! ) , but your post, to me at least, does bring into focus why some men might feel defensive.

As for Hully's testicle post... Well you know I like Hully's posts so I know her style. It's just in the context of thread that touches on 'man haters' I think it's worth the effort to at least mention how these kind of things might be misread when taken out of context from both sides of the division. Whether you're a feminist reading a comment on an MRA site, or an MRA reading a comment on a feminist site ( I know MN isn't a feminist site but I hope you see what I mean ) .

Lastly, yes I do have a form of dyslexia so I apologise for my bad spelling it's not intentional, I don't mean anything by it.

Classify it however you want Chairman. If it makes you feel better to say 'I have this privilege BUT not as much as xzy' go for it. But you still have male privilege.

Succinct post Wheezo, worded much better than I could have!

I always remember walking home late (probably not that late but at 9/10 years old it was dark so felt late) with my dad and he did this bizarre thing where as we approached a lone woman walking on the same street he immediately crossed over and speeded up - and being confused as to why we were doing this on a pretty much deserted street I asked him why and he explained that it was force of habit - if he ever found himself alone on a street at night with a woman in front of him that is what he did - because he didn't want the woman to be concerned a man was following her and crossing over put distance between them and speeding up put him in front of her within her line of vision so it was the best way (he thought) to remove that fear. At the time I didn't really understand but now I think how awesome of my dad to understand that to any woman he is Schroedinger's rapist and instead of getting all sulky over it he tried to adjust his behaviour practically to ensure he reduced anxiety of women who didn't know him.

So to me understanding privilege isn't only an intellectual activity - it is about basic human empathy and as blackcurrants said, being a decent human. It's all very well to grudgingly admit it exists because the statistics say so or because you've travelled the world but then to reject it personally because you don't attempt to chat up lone women or wolf whistle reveals a pretty limited capacity for empathy and imagination. It's just not very perceptive or self-aware. For my dad I don't think it was consciously feminist, I think it was a combination of loving a woman who had been sexually abused as a child and dealing with her pain as an adult and being a Buddhist (he reflects a lot on ego so I suspect if he had gone through a thought process where initially he felt well why should I have to cross over the road I've done nothing wrong I'm not going to do anything wrong, I pay my taxes for this road, I'm equally entitled to walk where I want blah blah blah he would immediately have had to question his reaction as being arrogant and ego-driven).

Mr Gin - I thought it had been established this board was about feminism not for feminism - therefore if posters want to come on threads and say horrible things about men you can't assume it's a feminist saying nasty 'jokes' about men because they're a feminist. We can't assume anyone on this board is a feminist unless they say they are. It could just be someone who hates men who has no feminist affiliations whatsoever. Or someone with a crass sense of humour who wants to derail threads and cause a fight? I thought the lack of comment on that particular post meant that we were all just getting on with the discussion and ignoring any attempts to derail which in view of past experiences on here is probably the best approach.

Also Mr Gin why the persistent mis-spelling of privilege and putting in speech marks as 'privalage' - comes across as a bit sneery and as if it is some mythical nebulous concept that can't quite be believed? Is it just bad spelling/misunderstanding punctuation? Apologies and ignore if you're dyslexic and it's just a mistake - it just struck me as to how it affected the entire tone of your post which is a shame if unintended.

yes absolutly mathanxiety, being paid more is a clear case of privilege
mr gin, agreed, the lottery of birth is huge, i also have seen the results around the world of poor education and no welfare state, it's sobering. but, being born male in the UK compared to female in the UK is less privilege than being born in the 3rd world.

being born male in afghanistan has imeasurable privilege, and still you will have a hard life!

If you wanted to understand where discrimination really hits home and where privilege comes into play, you could set aside about 25% of your salary as untouchable, and try to do everything you normally do on 75% of what you normally have at your disposal for a few months, if you want to experience life as a person who is not privileged, whether white or black or whatever.

Everything that women buy costs the same as it does for men, yet women get paid about 75% of what men do and are expected to pay their bills on time, pay the same price as men at the supermarket, etc. It's really no consolation to western women that we have it better than women elsewhere. We are still behind men and it is still harder for women to make ends meet.

My thoughts.... For what they're worth....

I do understand the idea of 'privalage'. I'm reasonably well educated, I read newspapers, I'd consider myself informed.

So I know there is legislation for equal pay, sufferagettes, and all kinds of disparities and discrimination that flash 'inequality' and thus a privalaged position as a male. I don't think it's anything but visable.

In the same way as having travelled the world , seeing what most of the rest of the world has to put up with and how our ( British ) general wealth and comparative luxuary leaves us at the top of the great lottery of where you're born.

So being 'privalaged' isn't so much of a revelation tbh.

Any defensiveness I think, speaking for myself, ( and thinking aloud ) comes from the assumption that one goes around gleefully flexing that privalage. Chatting single women up who're quietly reading a book , or shouting obnoxious comments at random women.

And if I could just comment on a post up thread... I know suggesting you cut some blokes testicles off is quite jokey, but if you read on some MRA site a jokey post about cutting some feminists tits off I think it'd probably be quoted in disgust.

Well I appreciate that chairman and in the warm fuzzy spirit of disclosure that is permeating his thread I will admit to feeling uncomfortable at the fact that when XH and I split it was fully accepted that I would have DS.

In my case it was 100% the best deal for DS but I was lucky that the law / societal attitudes were on my side.

Blimey all this sharing is too much. I need a

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1498107-Petition-against-sign-inviting-sexual-harassment

messy in 25 years in construction i have come across 3 women , 2 of whitch were painters , so yes, it's pretty closed to women, i like women, i wish there were more in the building trade, spending your day with only one sex can be really boring. but that doesnt change the fact that it isnt a real option for women just that the current climate doesnt help men or women.

as for the wolf whistleing there was a thread a while back about this i made myself clear on that there , will look for a link.

being female and deslexic the building trade wouldnt have been an option but at least there is heating in a factory. but ok, the option of the building trade is part of my male privilege.
told you this would be hard to swallow!

agreed blackcurrents

Chairman, yeah sorry did see that. Ok, so your entry into the well established and potentially lucrative industry of construction could be seen as a male privilege. Legally it is open to women but in reality it isn't:

As a girl it would never have occurred to me to be a builder because it was obvious from tv/RL that builders were men.

As a teenager/young woman it was bad enough having to walk past a construction site and brace myself for potential wolf whistles/ comments (1st prize goes to "I'd like you to sick on my cock like you're sucking on that lolly"!!) let alone the idea of working in one.

And if I had wanted to I would have had to have put up with all manner of preconceptions about my ability to do the job, plus quite a bit of sexual insults under the guise of banter.

So that is how you have benefitted from male privilege IMO. You may feel that you don't like the job (from your muddy comment) but you have at least had the chance to enter into a trade and make your way in it.

For my privilege as a woman, it most definitely has to do with having children despite damage sustained to body!