scottish feminists -

It's not funny at all.

Why would you say that?

bebopper76.wordpress.com/even-sex-trafficked-brothel-workers-reject-raids-and-rescues-prostitution-is-not-sex-trafficking/

But it seems there are cases when a woman is not believed when she claims she isn't a victim. Funny that.

You don't know what numbers I think these criminals exist in. It's not something I've worked out myself. I'm just making the obvious point that there is more than one way to interpret the evidence you've provided.

I do not like the idea of scaremongering that prostitution has 'always' existed, in 'every single' country, then turning to insist upon minimizing concerns about forced prostitution.

Do you honestly mean to imply that the women who say they were forced into prostitution, are lying?

That is a very sadly familiar narrative, with unsettling parallels with other situations in which women are not believed and their abusers are rarely caught and punished. It's too disturbing.

"It's quite probable criminals would hide, you know."

That's one theory, the other theory is these criminals just don't exist in the numbers you think they do.

We can't catch criminals who don't exist.

No, not necessarily reasonable.

It's quite probable criminals would hide, you know.

I think, in all honesty, it is absurd to talk about anyone else 'scaremongering' when you have yourself been caught out in two rather embarrassingly obvious overstatements not based in any facts you've been able to show.

The investigation was UK wide involving 55 police forces who raided 822 brothels/flats/massage parlours over 6 months.

If there really was a trafficking epidemic with thousands of victims it's reasonable to believe that investigation would have came up with something.

Yes I agree if one is forced that is one too many, but the point I am trying to make is there is a lot of scaremongering going on by certain politicians and newspapers who want society to think the problem is far worse than it really is.

Ah, it was actually the point about 'in every single country' that I had an issue with, too.

You see, when people argue using a generalization like this - saying prostitution has always existed everywhere - it's both very, very hard to prove, and implies that prostitution is inevitable.

That's why it's a damaging argument.

I don't understand why you are asking whether 'most' sex workers are being foreced to have sex - surely, if a single one has been forced, there are serious concerns? That would be my stance, at least.

I would also be much more immediately concerned with the women I've met, and the women a family member of mine works with, who felt and feel they've been forced into prostitution, than the people who forced them into it. Maybe I'm more cynical than you, but if a three-year-old investigation failed to find anyone whom they could prove forced others into prostitution, that makes me sadder and more worried about these women, not less.

Someone is doing the forcing - so why is it any consolation at all that we can't find them?

Btw, there is info on how to do links - you need to put at the start and at the end.

ok I will happily retract "thousands of years" and replace with "long time".

But a question for you- Does Scotland have a trafficking epidemic? Is there solid evidence that says most sex workers are being forced to have sex with customers against their will?

www.thescavenger.net/people/numbers-of-sex-trafficking-victims-are-exaggerated-13456-167.html
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

A quote from the middle link:

The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country.

That is an interesting sight, but not remotely proof of your claim.

I would like proof, or at least better evidence than a blog article on ancient history by someone with what appears to be a healthy sub-degree-level interest in it and a tendency to make sweeping rhetorical statements without evidence.

If you've overstated your case, it's really fine to say so.

colleenanderson.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/the-worlds-oldest-profession/

What we can be certain is it has been around a long time.

My post of 21:57, quoting from yours of 20:08.

What claim was that again?

I am grateful, however, to see that you're going with my suggestion of a tacit retraction of your earlier improbable claim.

I didn't suggest you said all customers were disabled.

It's considered a bit off to put words into people's mouths, you know. It suggests you don't really have a proper argument.

Whatever you do, don't feel bad about using sex workers - don't fall for the fundamentalist feminist propaganda that all sex work is violence to women. For a start, many sex workers are men, and most sex workers chose their career because it suits them, and enjoy their work.

A passage from that website (the writers for that website include prostitutes themselves). Interesting how it is in complete contrast to what feminist politicians and some newspapers tell us.

I didn't say all customers were disabled I suggested customers included the disabled.

And I am serious. Prostitution can be a valuable outlet for many people.

www.tlc-trust.org.uk/welcome/page1.html

I'm sorry, I'm being awfully rude, but I was actually disagreeing with your post and the statement in it, not what you can or can't imagine.

Again, I doubt you could ever prove there will always be people willing to pay for sex, and I do think it is rather offensive to cite in your first category there 'the disabled'. Did you mean that to sound quite so rude?

I never suggested it was only men who paid for sex, so we'll leave that by, but I'd suggest you look at the gender split of those paying and those prostituted.

Did you have anything to back up your earlier claim, or was this a tacit retraction?

I can't imagine prostitution going away any time soon. There will always be plenty of people willing to pay for sex (such as the disabled, unattractive, socially inept as well as "normal" guys who just want sex without the complications of a relationship or a one night stand).

And it's not just men who pay for sex, if you do a little research you will find there are a lot of female customers (shall we call them "Janes"?) who buy sex from male prostitutes. But the media and politicians generally like to keep quiet about this side of the industry.

rachelrabbitwhite.com/women-who-buy-sex-the-secret-life-of-jane/
quicktake.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/zanzibar-where-women-come-to-buy-sex/
(plenty more articles can be found with a quick search)

And there will always be plenty of people willing to be paid for sex (or provide companionship services such as going to a dance or on a dinner date with a client).

An escort in Scotland can earn between £100 and £200 an hour. How much is the minimum wage again?

How on earth could you defend the claim 'prostitution ... [has] existed for thousands of years in every single country up to now'?

That sounds a bit of a rash claim to me, a bit like a myth put about by the same types who come up with unverifiable idiocies like 'all men watch porn'.

Not, of course, that past history is ever the best reason to assume the future should be the same ...

NarkedRaspberry Tue 19-Jun-12 23:53:08
The idea that paid sex is 'consenting' is laughable
I would be happy with every penny spent exposing the kind of creature who thinks they can buy a human being, even on an hourly basis.

I've heard this a lot but if a customer visits a prostitute how exactly is he "buying her body"?? He is not buying (or even renting) her body he is simply paying for the service she is providing for her wages. It's her job, you might not like it but that's what she does for her wages.

A question- if my computer breaks and I call a repair man to come and fix it does that mean I am buying the repair man? Do you realize how silly that sounds?

The idea that paid sex is 'consenting' is laughable
Payment of money does not automatically equal consent. A sex worker or an escort upon receiving payment still has the right to say no to anything she doesn't want to do.

@Julia "I'm presuming you think prostitution will always exist"

I for one think prostitution will always exist. It's existed for thousands of years in every single country up to now so I don't see why it will cease any time soon.

Prostitution is illegal in most US states yet call girls is still a multi-billion dollar industry. And the US has a problem with streetwalkers in a lot of places.

Some hail the "swedish model" as the magic solution. 10 years on and now they are admitting prostitution has simply moved from the streets onto the internet. The link below calls the law a "success" because it has reduced the number of streetwalkers- so it seems all sweden cares about is pushing it out of sight.

www.thelocal.se/27580/20100703/
www.petraostergren.com/pages.aspx?r_id=40716

We already have laws against rape and trafficking, so why do we need a law criminalizing adults who make choices? What happened to "my body my choice"? Should women choose what to do with their own body or should the government tell them what they can and can't do?

Do you really think making something illegal wipes it out?

Cannabis is illegal in the UK so that must mean noone smokes it right?

It's illegal to download copyrighted material, so that must mean noone downloads music from the internet right?

There is ALWAYS a way around bans. Business will just go underground out of sight where things could become dangerous.

If feminists really cared about the welfare of prostitutes, they should be opposing criminalization attempts. Pushing the industry underground will not do prostitutes any favours.

Julie people who are trafficked ARE in slavery, some are sold to pay of family debts as a form of bonded slavery. I think your last sentance is meant to imply that some people will find any reason to argue for prostitution. SOME people might but every one who takes part in a debate and offers statements of fact should be able o provide evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

Beachcomber. Coercion and stigmatisation of the johns will not produce the change in attitude you spoke of in your earlier post. Whilst we agree on what the end goal is, I think you want to punish for a human rights vilation instead of making sure that the violation stops.

OldladyThey didn't say it wasn't a good idea, they just advised women to 'be careful'. That is accepting it, therefore complicit.

I'm presuming you think prostitution will always exist, so we should try to make it safer? People said similar about slavery. Fortunately, it wasn't true.

Ferret all you like, but I doubt you'll find evidence that the Australian Government was complicit in the abuse of women by handing out anaesthic syringes, when your own link shows they were actually handing out info saying that the use of such medication isn't such a good idea.

What was that about it being useful when people know what they're talking about?