A thread started by a man to throw a few things around.

MrMag, yes, any disparity needs to be addressed. How a kid behaves in school is largely determined by how behaviour is taught in the home (in my opinion). Do you work in education? Do you have any ideas around this?

Chairman, I hear you! One think I think I have picked up in here is that most posters are pretty reasonable people. As in any walk of life there are some who are not. There are also 'degrees' of feminism - I liken it to the Labour party. There are those with less and those with more extreme views. You will see some posters stating that their brand of feminism is more feminist that someone else's feminism. Other feminists believe that if men like your brand of feminism then 'you are doing something wrong'! I will leave it at that. That idea of posting as a woman has briefly occurred to me, but I decided against it. It wouldn't prove anything that I didn't already know. As I said though, the majority of posters are good people - it's a bit like real life! I try to treat everyone with the same level of respect. That is all you can do.

Eats, I agree that having to start from point one in too many discussions can take too much time. If it comes as a genuine enquiry, it's fine to point someone in the direction of some kind of 'beginner's guide'. If it comes complete with arrogance and half-baked theories, well put your tin hat on

On a personal level, I was never going to send my daughter or my son to a mixed school. My daughter has a female head, deputy head and head of year. She has plenty of role models there, and an environment where there are less distractions. Teenage boys are, by and large idiots. I know, I was one.

One more thing I forgot on the glass ceiling and pay equality. I would for a huge IT company, which is a relatively young industry with therefore a less ingrained culture. The worldwide CEO is a woman. I have had countless female colleagues paid the same as me, or more. I have had just as many female managers as male. I have seen men and women promoted beyond me, because they were good enough. I have never heard one female colleague complain that she was passed over on the basis of her sex. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but it does mean that it is not everywhere. Attitudes in the workplace can and do change. One reason for this is that companies/corporations as greedy, and anyone who can make more money for said company will get on faster to feed that greed. This greed overrides any lesser form of prejudice. Capitalism doesn't see genitals, it sees dollars. I have mentioned this in other discussions and got roundly blasted, but that is my personal experience.

Mmango, Fatima Whitbread and Tessa Sanderson threw things for a living. Don't go looking for issues that are not there to begin with. I am sure there is far better material in here for you to get your teeth into (women have teeth, right?).

MrMag, firstly I am not some kind of apologist or male missionary for the feminist cause, so let's not get into me having to defend every point made on this board. There is plenty of stuff in and around feminism that I agree with, and just as much that I don't think stands up to scrutiny. Everything has to be on a case-by-case basis. Those who know their point of view before understand the issue are idiots (Chris Rock, circa 2007).

Did you check the link that I posted re wage differentials? What did you think? Any of this type of research can be written with a prior agenda, but it was referencing pay rates per hour across different EU countries, and there was a clear trend. I'd honestly like to know what you think, I am not dismissing you. What is does show is the pay gap closing. Pay equality is coming. Feminists get angry that it isn't here NOW, but there are hundreds of years of inequality to overthrow, and attitudes take time to change. Also, the glass ceiling - I have never been anywhere near director level, so I can't comment personally. I did here a group of female UK directors on the radio a few weeks ago, discussing positive discrimination and quotas to get more women on boards as directors. They were all against it, and believed women can get to the top without positive bias.

The school thing. It is real, girls outperform boys. I have a 12 year old son and a 15 yo daughter. Both go to single sex schools, at our choosing. If there is a bias within the education system, then it is wrong. However, in my huge experience of two kids, the curriculum is the same and the opportunities are the same. We would have to ask an education expert as to why girls do better. Could it be the rate at which they mature, or their attitude to academic study, or the fabled 'multitasking' capabilities of the female brain? If the latter were true, they would be better suited to studying multiple subjects to a certain depth. Perhaps the male brain then comes into it's own in later academic life, i.e. single subject to much greater depth. As you can tell, I am throwing stuff around here. We need an expert to answer.

The healthcare thing - I didn't dismiss it. I have no idea about healthcare budgets and how they are allocated. If you can show me that overall women's treatments are favoured over men's purely on the basis of their sex, then I would say that it is wrong.

Eats, you are welcome here.

There is a thread on here currently about transsexual people where there appears to be a good deal of prejudice emanating from a certain faction of feminism, so it isn't only men who are capable of mistreating such a minority. However, I take your point generally. Why should my wife or daughter have to deal with caveman attitudes/ shouting/ idiocy from men in white vans or on building sites? My friend's wife has big boobs. She wont go out jogging round the streets any more because of the shouts from cars and vans. What they see as harmless fun, isn't.

That's the nub, Xenia. In the majority of cases, it does not make economic sense for the man to give up work rather than the woman. The problem is that with current economic thinking, this government is more likely to try to drop men's wages to bring them in line with women's than vice versa. I would have happily taken time out if my wife had earned more than me.

Right. Firstly, Homeland is/was brilliant!

So, equality. Men and women should be paid the same wage for the same work, agreed? According to this EU website, they aren't;

www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2002/01/study/tn0201101s.htm

According to this, in the UK, between 1990 and 2000, women went from being paid 76 per cent of what men got to 80 per cent. So they get paid, on average, 20 per cent less for doing the same stuff. Why should they get less for the same work?

Most of the people in power are men. The current cabinet;

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8675705.stm

24 ministers, 5 women.

The head of Barclays Bank - Bob Diamond. The head of RBS - Stephen Hester. The head of LLoyds - Antonio Horta-Osorio. BP chairman - Carl Henri Svanberg (14 other board execs, 2 women). The point about men choosing careers in these companies, and putting that ahead of family? For me that is the main reason, but it's a crappy one. I have two kids. Why shouldn't I see them grow up? My wife and I wanted them, but I was always earning more, so she stayed at home when they were small. Why should she stay working for 20 - 25 per cent less money than I could make? That isn't fair on me either.

Education? Girls are significantly outperforming boys, at school and university. I think this will go a long way to addressing the previous point about all those higher paid men. It has to, otherwise companies and businesses will under-perform.

The BBC article? Agreed, there is massive focus on women's health issues, e.g. breast cancer, cervical cancer. I don't see massive inequalities within the health service myself, but then I don't really use it. I have been very lucky with my health.

So, back to you MrMagnolia. I want to keep this here because this isn't a board for feminists. It's a place for people to discuss feminism. It interests me.

Right. I am off to watch 'Homeland'. Post away if you like and we can address this stuff later. I'll just say this. Feminism is really not just 'equality please'. It is a political movement, with theories, philosophies, protagonists and factions - like socialism or conservatism. If you as a man wade in on this board with half-baked ideas and opinions that most of the posters have heard a thousand times already, you will get your arse kicked and gain nothing.

If you come here to learn a bit, argue/propose coherent points and listen to others, it can be stimulating and enlightening. There will be plenty you don't agree with, and some people wont want to give you the time of day, but whatever you do, don't take comments personally. It's the internet. Nobody knows you.