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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Negotiating feminist agitation within a hetrosexual relationship

59 replies

Thistledew · 30/03/2012 19:39

My DP is one of the good guys. He is kind and respectful. He treats me (and women in general) as his equal. He does his fair share of the housework and we have discussed the possibilities of him either working part time or being a SAHD when we have children, so that I can focus on my career, which I love.

One way in which we differ is that he is quite self-contained in his world view. Life has been pretty good to him, and he is very comfortable in it, which means that he has little interest in thinking critically about why things are the way they are, and whether anything could be done differently.

He is broadly supportive of the feminist cause, and although he is guilty of placing more emphasis on the legal gains towards equality that have been made, rather than the social ones, this seems to be because he has not been confronted with the effects of social inequality, and has just never had cause to think about it. When I have pointed out things to him, he has been quick to appreciate what I have shown him: for example, he used to watch pornography, but after I pointed out to him how damaging it is to individual women and women as a whole, he completely changed his view of it.

But yet, earlier this week, I re-posted on Facebook this article - 5 ways modern men are trained to hate women after I saw it on one of my friend's feeds. DP was really upset. We had a big discussion about the article. He said that he felt it was unnecessarily aggressive and would in fact have the effect of alienating men from the feminist cause. His view is that the pace of change towards equality is steady and progressing, and that it is counter productive to try to force a big change, as it could create a backlash amongst men who would see it as a gender war, rather than something that benefits both sexes.

My first thoughts were that DP reacted this way as a result of unconscious male privilege. That the 'good guys' still expect women to be explicit in making it clear that we could not possibly mean them when we criticise patriarchal attitudes - amounting to a sense of deference to their position. Also, that even amongst the 'good guys' they are still shocked to hear a strong female voice that uncompromisingly criticises male behaviour, and are made to feel uncomfortable by it even if they agree with what is being said.

However, as we talked it through, DP said that the main thing was that he felt very hurt, and his first thought on reading the article was "I hope that she does not think that I am like that".

I am confident that this was a genuine feeling of hurt on the part of DP, and not any attempt to manipulate. So my question is, how can we as feminists best try to tackle the patriarchy, without hurting the decent men in our lives, but without compromising on our beliefs and what we need to say? Has anyone else had a similar issue in their relationship, and if so, how did you deal with it?

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Beachcomber · 02/04/2012 15:52

yes, she is great.

I'm a fan of her feminism 101

JosephineB · 02/04/2012 15:38

I love Melissa'a writing.

These are some of my other all time favourites from her:

More

On angry men

Feminists look for stuff to get mad about

Beachcomber · 02/04/2012 15:24

Thank you, have done (twice I thought it was so good!).

JosephineB · 02/04/2012 11:59

By all means!

Beachcomber · 02/04/2012 08:11

That's a great piece of writing, thanks Josephine. Can I post it on another thread where I think it is very relevant? Cheers.

JosephineB · 02/04/2012 06:15
Smile
BasilFoulTea · 01/04/2012 22:39

JosephineB, that article you linked to is brilliant. Thanks.

Did you read it Inde? It goes to exactly hte core of what the OP is on about.

inde · 01/04/2012 13:56

Your first point I will have a think about as I don't have a lot of time to respond anyway.
Second point I thought I had already answered.
Third point. I would say I am also pro women's rights although my wife does see things more through the perspective of being a woman and having been a mother. I asked her recently if she thought men and women were the same (mentally not physically) and she treated the question as if I were insane to ask. She thinks that men get a lot easier life but like me she puts it down to nature not nurture.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 01/04/2012 13:16

What do you see as the differences between men and women, beyond the obvious physiological ones? What do you think stops more women wanting to be long distance truck drivers? Why do you suppose that traditionally female occupations are so low paid compared with traditional male ones?

What do you consider to be the 'minor' issues, seeing as that is what you say you are offering a male viewpoint on?

If your wife is very pro women's rights, I'd say she's a feminist, whether she wants to use that word or not. That doesn't mean that everything she does is a feminist act.

inde · 01/04/2012 13:00

back for a mo while we have lunch.

I think men and women can be slightly different and still both expect the same respect and equal rights. For instance I doubt there will ever be as many long distance women truck drivers as men but I would 100% support a woman's right to do the job.
On your second point you can read it the way you have or the way I meant it. Which wasn't the way you are taking it. I would never try to say for instance that there was a man's point of view to a woman's right to say no. It should be exactly the same as a woman's pov.
On a completely different issue though I think when it is argued that men are all part of some conspiracy to keep women down I think I do have a right to respond. Sometimes when my wife asks me to do something she doesn't like doing and I jokingly say "why me" she will say "your the man". She is not really a feminist but very pro women's rights so I don't think she is part of the conspiracy. The women I work with and think are great don't seem to expect men and women's roles to be exactly the same. I don't think they are part of a conspiracy any more than I am.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 01/04/2012 12:36

Normal? Really? I suppose it's quite useful in a way that you've stopped pretending you think men and women are 100% equal.

This ...

And I am not trying to tell you which battles are more important. I am just trying to add a male perspective to some of the more minor issues.

... is a bit self-contradictory isn't it?

Did you read the blog post JosephineB linked to?

inde · 01/04/2012 11:45

I just take it as normal POBG. The women are not slacking whilst I am doing my job. I hope nothing I am saying though is taken to be detrimental to the feminist cause in general because I think there are many battles that need to be fought. And I am not trying to tell you which battles are more important. I am just trying to add a male perspective to some of the more minor issues.
Anyway my dw is shooting daggers at me because I am not pulling my weight today so I will have to withdraw from this discussion.

Nyac · 01/04/2012 11:44

I didn't say you were calculating Inde, that's just twisting my words, I said men as a group had made a calculation that patriarchy benefits them and they want to keep it.

I don't see any men working to overthrow male supremacy and patriarchy. Do you? It's been left up to women by and large.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 01/04/2012 11:36

Why do you think your boss is right to expect more of you because you are a man?

JosephineB · 01/04/2012 11:34

I don't think we should be wasting too much sympathy on them

LOL! I don't. Wink

But I do think it is in women's best interests if men change faster and they might be more inclined to do that if they could see some benefit in doing so.

inde · 01/04/2012 11:31

We men are not the calculating creatures you think we are Nyac. We all, men and women, act in ways based on our own view of life. Is my female boss wrong to expect more of me on a small amount of occasions? I'm sure you woukd think so but I don't and the women I work with don't seem to either.

Nyac · 01/04/2012 11:23

Well they've made the calculation and they think it's worth it. So I don't think we should be wasting too much sympathy on them.

On the other hand women and girls have no choice. We're stuck with this system until we are finally able to overthrow it.

JosephineB · 01/04/2012 11:20

Sexism and misogyny does actually work in men's favour. They gain huge benefits from it.

I should have been clearer - of course men gain enormous opportunities under patriarchy (at women's expense) but I truly believe they lose something very important - authentic relationships and their full emotional expression. I think most men live with a constant fear of being found out that they are not 'man enough' (hence the widespread fragility of most male egos and the sheer panic many experience when anything suggests they are not the sole focus of women's attantion)

I'm not saying it's equal - far from it - but I think feminism offers a beter future for both women and men. Yes men would lose their unearned privileges but what they would gain would be so much more.

inde · 01/04/2012 11:19

Perhaps I am complacent PPG. I do care about social injustice but sometimes you have to screen out some of the wrongs, and I'm not just talking about sexism, or else you would go insane. Like I say as well i don't think we will ever live in a world were there is no sexism because I don't believe males and females are exactly the same so there will be some expectation of men and women to fulfil different rolls in life.

@Julia Scurr. You might well be right about excluding women from mines was to defend male privilege but personally I wouldn't be absolutely certain based on one persons research. Any more than I would believe the AGW deniers or moon landing deniers based on one article. I'm not trying to be offensive it is just that I take part in many discussions about many subjects on the internet and I know people can find support for any point of view. Anyway what it meant to my wife was that she was not expected to go down the mines which i think we would all agree was a horrible job. The women didn't have any easy time of it either though but they did have better working conditions.

Nyac · 01/04/2012 11:07

Sexism and misogyny does actually work in men's favour. They gain huge benefits from it. It's why they don't want to give it up and why we still need feminism.

JosephineB · 01/04/2012 11:05

Sexism didn't all work in the males favour

Sexism doesn't work in anyone's favour. Women are denied opportunities and men are denied their humanity.

Feminists don't point out the shortcomings of sexism to 'have a go at men' and nor do we go around looking for 'small things' to get bothered about.

Your comments reminded me of this blog post.

JuliaScurr · 01/04/2012 11:03

inde regarding mining and sexism working against men, there's a good article (which I can't find a good link to) by Jane Humphries about the 1842 Mines Act and how it defended male privilege within capitalism

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 01/04/2012 11:01

My point is that we live in a sexist world and not everybody gets as annoyed with the small things as you feminists. Also I think women are 100% equal to men but I don't think the differences in attitudes between men and women can be completely explained by culture.

You come across as thoroughly complacent. How does the quote go ... All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

(I have deliberately bolded 'men' in this quote because they are the ones with the power - the ball is very firmly in their court on all sorts of feminist issues.)

Sexism didn't all work in the males favour You're quite correct, the patriarchy hurts men too, although I doubt the clothing workers and secretaries were earning anything near a miner's wage.

inde · 01/04/2012 10:59

If he and his wife have an equal relationship perhaps he feels he has been lectured once too often. There should be give and take in a marriage and both partners should be sensitive to each others feelings.

Nyac · 01/04/2012 10:56

If he's bringing it back to his hurt feelings rather than noticing how badly men as a group treat women, then he's not acting like a good guy, and as you note acting out of male privilege.

The article wasn't feminist though, and wasn't written by a woman, so all the stuff he's saying about feminism alienating men doensn't really apply.

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