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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Really? we think that "that organisation" are representative of fathers in general? really?

391 replies

NormaStanleyFletcher · 18/03/2012 17:38

"They are already telling us that F4J (and by association every dad in the land) are bullying and intimidating them in this latest campaign, a stance that completely ignores the decades of intimidation that has been suffered by fathers at the hands of women?s organistions and which attempts to control the space around the campaign..."

Do they think we are as mad and misguided as them?

Intimidation by women's organisations?

From http://karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/on-the-tyranny-of-the-weak-a-mothers-day-musing/

Who is this handmaden person?

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 28/03/2012 21:00

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Johnde · 28/03/2012 20:42

No not manipulating figures. Actually giving a realistic apraisal of the time we each actually spend caring for our children, and the costs involved. I wonder how you would respond to a mother whose ex had treated her like this?

swallowedAfly · 28/03/2012 09:38

right so the point is that you are not having them 45% of the time by the standards set (re nights stayed) but are deducting the time they are in school from her time. manipulating figures basically.

so what you have them every other weekend and a school night and call that 45%?

Johnde · 27/03/2012 21:57

'was that "ransom" her share of the marital property by any chance?'
Nope - That's over and above a 50:50 split of matrimonial assets. Actually way beyond that.

'it is not true to say that children automatically go to the mother in the way that they used to 'belong' to the father. as you've said yourself you have 45% residency'

I had to pay for it, she did not. That's my point. It was made very clear to me that I would lose contact with my children if I did not pay up. Not just by my ex but both lawyers involved, they knew the score.

'also i'm surprised you're paying much if anything via the csa if what you are saying about the children being with you for 45% of the time is true.'

It is true and I'm pretty 'surprised' too. The 45% calculation is based not on nights resided with each parent as the CSA do, but actual time, i.e. weekends, evenings and holidays involve proportionately more care time, and more cost, than weekday school nights.

'so you should be paying 15% of your net income minus 45% realistically. if your facts are straight and that's not the case call the csa and get it sorted.'

No, it's not. 20% for two children, reduced to 15%. Only one night per week difference in the time they spend with each of us. That's the CSA calculation.

For parents who have equal incomes and share care of two children equally (as calculated by nights spent with each) Dad still pays Mum 10% of his income, and she gets to keep all the child benefit. She ends up with well over 20% more net income than him.

The really sick thing is that this will go down on the CSA's balance sheet under the "amount collected for amount spent collecting" balance sheet. This means that the CSA can look like they're doing their job when they are not. As I said equality first, last, always. The people who ultimately suffer from the calculation are low income parents with 100% care of their children whose fathers do not want to be involved in their care, and want to evade their financial responsibility. It all goes down on the same balance sheet. I pay the same as 40 scumbags who do not give a damn about their kids.

'incidentally no the csa don't take into account the RP's income. it's quite clear that at least 15% of their net income will be spent towards housing, clothing, childcare etc etc etc when they have a child living with them.'

Yes, of course, unless you are a wealthy mother with a wealthy ex. I provide accommodation for my kids, food, clothes, presents for their friends, mobile phone top ups, pay 60% of their school fees, 60% of any school related costs etc. etc. She lives in a house that's worth 2.5 times the value of mine.

The government made absolutely no attempt to calculate the costs of caring for children when they devised the CSA formula. By contrast studies in Australia suggest that parents with one third time with their children carry at least 40% of the costs involved. Their CSA calculation takes this into account, and what's really interesting is they have a much better "amount collected for amount spent collecting" balance sheet, suggesting that compliance is much higher with systems that are transparently fair, as one would expect, and the money gets to those that most need it.

'i don't know about anyone else (and £500pw net income is wildly beyond my means) but it is impossible to bring up a child on 15% of your net income - for most working single mothers with a young child full time childcare (in order to be able to work) is over half of their income gone straight away.'

It depends on your income. Studies suggest that the top income quartile spend only 20% more on their children than the bottome quartile. I spend well over 50% of my income on my kids. My ex spends approx 10%.

swallowedAfly · 27/03/2012 07:13

and bear in mind that the nrp's maintenance is all in - it's not maintenance plus school trips, uniforms, braces, music lessons, clothes, after school clubs, childcare, sports equipment etc. so everything is included in that sum. whereas the resident parent retains full financial responsibility for the child.

i don't know about anyone else (and £500pw net income is wildly beyond my means) but it is impossible to bring up a child on 15% of your net income - for most working single mothers with a young child full time childcare (in order to be able to work) is over half of their income gone straight away.

swallowedAfly · 27/03/2012 07:03

incidentally no the csa don't take into account the RP's income. it's quite clear that at least 15% of their net income will be spent towards housing, clothing, childcare etc etc etc when they have a child living with them.

from the nrp's contribution there is a scale of deductions whereby you pay less than that if you have other children to support in your home and you have deductions dependent on the amount of time your child spends in your home whereby you too will be incurring expenses.

so basically if you never have your child, or have them less than one night a week and you don't have any other children to support you pay 15% of your net income. the more you have them or the more other children you have the less you pay.

swallowedAfly · 27/03/2012 06:52

was that "ransom" her share of the marital property by any chance?

it is not true to say that children automatically go to the mother in the way that they used to 'belong' to the father. as you've said yourself you have 45% residency.

also i'm surprised you're paying much if anything via the csa if what you are saying about the children being with you for 45% of the time is true. if they stay 3 nights out of 7 that would be factored into their calculations re: she would not get maintenance for nights when the children were with her. so you should be paying 15% of your net income minus 45% realistically. if your facts are straight and that's not the case call the csa and get it sorted.

Johnde · 26/03/2012 21:03

Just for the record - Am I a member of F4J? - no. Do I support their tactics? - no. Am I cynical about the motives of some of them? - yes. Do I understand the despair that some of these guys are suffering? - absolutely definitely yes.

My point is that tens of thousands of children and parents in this country are being deprived of their basic human rights because of the parent's gender and the fact that their ex wishes to use the children as a tool of abuse.

Historically fathers were automatically awarded custody of children post divorce. Now the state automatically awards custody of the children to the mother, regardless of the pre-separation childcare arrangements, and despite the fact that fathers in intact families carry more responsibility for day to day care of children than they ever have before.

Before I separated from my violent abusive ex I provided more care to my children, and all the tasks associated therewith, than her, and loved doing so. One of the reasons we separated was that she could not handle a man who did not conform to her neat gender stereotype - it was too threatening for her.

I now have about 45% care time of my children but in order to achieve this I have had to pay a 'ransom' of over £100,000 - more than my net worth. She still regularly hurls abuse at me in front of the children to the point where they are in tears.

The CSA calculation takes no account of her income which exceeds mine. She pays nothing from her own income for the upkeep of our children when they reside with me. The net effect is that she has to pay nothing from her income for the upkeep of our children.

I think parents who refuse to pay for the upkeep of their children are a disgrace. My ex is one of them. The only difference between her and so-called dead-beat dads is that she can use a government agency to abdicate her responsibility. (Giyadas - I still would not support hanging her!)

I believe in equality, first, last, always. There is none in the current situation. I have two daughters who I am bringing up to believe in equality, and in respecting people for who they are regardless of their gender. I do not want them to grow up thinking they are victims because they are female.

LineRunner · 26/03/2012 15:37

F4J (and by association every dad in the land)

I just wanted to re-state the bleedin' obvious that every father in the land certainly does not associate themselves with the 'F4J' grouping of individuals. It's laughable, really.

LineRunner · 26/03/2012 15:33

F4J (and by association every dad in the land)

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 26/03/2012 12:37

Exactly saf Can I join you in a Hmm ?

Giyadas · 26/03/2012 12:24

John, What are your thoughts on re-introducing hanging for those that refuse to pay child support?
Serious question, like.

swallowedAfly · 26/03/2012 09:58

the 'tyranny of the weak' mythology is just horror at any 'rights' the weak have managed to gain. horror that a woman can now leave a violent man with legal and financial support from the state and the right to maintenance from a man for the upkeep of his children. oh the tyranny!!! Hmm

McFluffster · 26/03/2012 08:40

I wonder how many of the fathers advocating 50% care actually did 50% of the work Xenia sets out while they were living as co-parents i.e. the washing, dealing with school and childcare, taking time off work when the children are ill, shopping for clothes, picking up toys and preparing meals etc.

AliceHurled · 26/03/2012 08:17

Dave is that you? This isn't the way to win back women voters you know.

AgnesCampbellMacPhail · 26/03/2012 08:04

What an asinine question.

EightiesChick · 26/03/2012 00:12

I don't see any value or point in that sort of trade off. Care to explain why you are posing the question? I'd like a bit more context before I complete this particular Cosmopolitan quiz of the week.

Johnde · 25/03/2012 23:54

Which right would you rather lose by virtue of your gender - the right to care for your children or the right to vote?

Honest answers please. It's a serious question. :)

dollymixtures · 19/03/2012 21:05

How does the 'tyranny of the weak' explain the Panorama programme I've just watched about 'honour' killings Eighties chick?

Gah, I'm just so sick of reading about F4J and their bloody pity parties when shit like that is going on Angry

EightiesChick · 19/03/2012 20:43

'decades of intimidation at the hands of women's organisations' - it would be funny if people weren't taken in by this shit!

How does the 'tyranny of the weak' explain the rape conviction rate, then, eh? By this logic it should be running at near 100%! With all the convicted men sent down by female judges, of course Hmm

How does the 'tyranny of the weak' explain continuing pay inequality? Grr.

SophieNeveu · 19/03/2012 20:41

applaud kritiq

TheSecondComing · 19/03/2012 20:40

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Tortington · 19/03/2012 20:35

i think they should campaign against man cardigans

InmaculadaConcepcion · 19/03/2012 20:32

God, my sister and I would have been miserable as sin if we'd been forced to live with our father 50% of the time when my parents split up. And he was and is a nice guy.

The children's preferences should be considered and surely those should be an important factor in determining the "default position" when parents part company with each other.

It's not just about mothers' rights vs fathers' rights. There are children involved and they are small human beings, not possessions to be argued over when a partnership splits asunder. They have rights, too.

Xenia · 19/03/2012 20:01

Well extreme tactics is what got women the vote. Sometimes it is necessary. I would like F4J to campaign against absent parents who choose not to have contact with their chidlren (there are many many of them).

I would like them to support default legal position of children being with both parents 50% of the time meaning 50% of the washing and all the reality of having a child shaerd by the other parent. They have too many members who only want children on their terms 100% of the child or just a right over key decisions not day after day mundane care, up in the night, cleaning clothes and children etc.

I certainly support their 50% stance and I would like every housewife drummed off the planet and if anyone stays home doing dull stuff it should be male all the time until we hvae had 5000 years with women being the majority in the cabinet and the like. We have a huge way to go before there is fairness for women.

Also if a lot of these men before divorce ensured they didn't have a houswife at home, supported their wife's career etc they would find a lot more fairness (and money) after divorce.