Really? we think that "that organisation" are representative of fathers in general? really?

rad feminists get criticised for 'demonising men', when all they're doing is pointing out inequality and unfairness, and also correcting various myths that fly around.

''and far too many parents, usually female, deny men contact.''

Yet, every study on the subject points to women being the ones chasing their ex partners and husbands, trying to get them to have even minimal contact. These same studies show nearly twice as many women thought their ex's should spend more time with the kids, than there are men who wanted more time with the kids.

There is no evidence that even a significant number of women are denying men contact to their children.

I have never seen anyone on this board demonise men. I have seen discussion of men's behaviour as a statistical group, but never ever have I seen men themselves demonised. In fact, one of the things that struck me as I learned about feminism was that men were not demonised, and in fact were held in much higher regard than by non-feminists. The non-feminist standpoint seems to be that men "can't help" certain behaviours, which I find quite insulting to the vast majority of men who most certainly can help it.

Radfeminists demonise men, linerunner. I'm not going to get into this argument again. The whole MRA response bothers me. I want equality, not gender division and hostility.

What is it that you want feminists to care more about, that affects you, Sigmund?

It is that

our daughters struggle to find a man who will be prepared to father their children ?

There is still a big issue of female and male wage rates differences particularly in working class jobs stuffed with jobs for the boys white men in the public sector. Some very brave women rbought many many council equal pay cases to ensure parity of pay in jobs which were equivalent but I suspect there is still much to be done in many of those types of jobs.

I support equal rights for men on divorce (as a woman who paid out to a man on divorce) and I have always lobbied against women who deny men contact with their chidlren as I want fairness - that is all feminism is and far too many parents, usually female, deny men contact. I would like the law changed to 50./50 care post divorce unless the parties agree otherwise or the court says so which would help full time working mothers and also fathers. The extent F4J supports that principle I support them,. Most parents of either gender feel upset when they hear about a parent denied contact with a child as we know how it feels to love a child.

I did not come on looking for a fight. I'm neither injured nor a martyr. I have a point of view which is often belittled but I'm a big girl, I can cope. It's interesting that a woman who expresses a different view is 'looking for a fight'.

Anyway, I have a 5 year old demanding attention, so this 'walking cliche' has to go.

Laters.

They don't seem to care about how I feel, yet they're perfectly happy to continue in my name, without asking me.

What would feminists be doing if they cared about you?

I love the theory that men 'conspire' to keep women off garbage trucks etc..

Not a theory. It's a fact. The Miners Act of 1842 forbade the employment of women and girls underground - not many female MPs involved in passing that law.

The Textile Act of 1844 banned women from overnight work which kept them out of street cleaning.

You may be right about sewage works - my emploment history knowledge doesn't stretch that far.

The Sex Discrimination Act 1975 was meant to sweep all that away - and it did legally but not socially. Even today there are some jobs with few women employed in them - and high levels of sexism and sexual harassment are faced by those that do. In other words, men make the environmentso unpleasant that few women want to work there. Generally jobs that fall into this category tend to be better paid - even with comparable jobs that are female dominated. (see this case from just 10 months ago.

No one is saying that they don't want to be treated respectfully - which is what I think you may be confusing chivalry with.

Sigmund you came on this thread looking for a fight. You got one. Don't play injured martyr now.

But Sigmund, you are surrounding yourself with caricatures and upsettedness, surely. Life as a feminist is actually very uplifting for me, and for my daughter and son. And I like people and I do aspire to support everyone's human rights.

What's upsetting me? Oh I dunno..maybe feminists?

Thanks for the tissue Smells, I'll pad my unburnt bra with it

What's upsetting you, Sigmund? Is it the doors? Or are the doors a metaphor, do you think?

Feminists are changing the status quo perfectly well without my input. They don't seem to care about how I feel, yet they're perfectly happy to continue in my name, without asking me.

Chivalry has class discrimination written right through it, too.

''You're responsible for the contents of your own though.''

Yes, that's why you won't catch me advising people to petition for rights they already have. hth.

Benevolent sexism is the better term to describe what some would say was simply chivalrous behaviour. As you've nicely demonstrated sigmund, this 'chivalry' comes at a price and that price is women not doing anything to change the status quo.

I hold doors open for people because it is helpful.

I also recall as a girl being excluded from certain occupations. When the army careers adviser came to my school we were told we could join up and become a secretary or a kennel maid.

I dimly recall female teachers not being allowed to be married.

I am 49, not 109.

I just hold the door open for the person following behind me. Male or female, I don't discriminate.

yep me too SF. what's your point? you were the one who brought this into conversation and accused us of given you swollen ankles and having doors slammed in your face

Well that's good SAF. When I've walked through held open doors I've found it difficult to tell whether the man in question expected me to lose any rights as a human being though...I tend to just say 'thanks'.