Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

Not everyone thinks the same. I saw a friend today with 4 DCs and 5 cats. I couldn't live like it, but she is perfectly happy as is her family. I expect she would hate her DH to be cleaning everywhere.It isn't of the least importance to her. Everyone is different. Communication is the key.

At the bottom of it all HerBeX-why did you start living or go onto have DCs with a man who didn't think the same? Was it something you didn't realise until afterwards? Did he hide it? Did you not ask about his childhhood, see his father in the home etc.

Communication HerBeX.

My DCs do as their parents-both of them- do. Either you make sure your DH is doing it as an example ,or you sort it out yourself. No utter point in moaning.

I do my housework to my standards-I think they are fine , I am not doing it to perfectionist standards-if they want it they can do it themselves. I don't call it manipulative-I have never been any different-if they didn't like it no one forced them to live with me! I am quite direct-what you see is what you get.

LOL, my patronising of Exoticfruits is deliberate because I think that's what she deserves with her continual setting up of Aunt Sallys so that she can avoid engaging with people's actual points. Anyone who behaves that way in a debate, deserves to patronised to within an inch of their lives and I reserve the right to pat her kindly on the head if she does it again.

Viz us being able to change it with our children,Exoticfruits, once again you are wrong - one thing you said that was right, was that children learn from what we do, not from what we say. So no matter how much women role model equality, independence etc., if men aren't doing their fair share, children are going to imbibe that lesson.

And another thing - the well-worn technique of not doing the housework up to someone else's standard, is simply another method of ensuring that you wriggle out of doing your fair share. There is a reasonable balance between not being a control freak and insisting that everything is done in exactly the way you want it, and having a hygienic home in which you can relax and feel comfortable. I accept that some people are simply control freaks; but I also know tht masses and masses of men out there, deliberately do the housework really badly so that their partners re-do it and don't rely on them to do it again. Once again, don't blame women for having too high standards, blame the men who are using a really manipulative technique which my children don't even bother to try out on me anymore...if you live with someone, you love them and you want domestic harmony, you bloody well make sure that you do the housework to their standard, because you care about their comfort. I once lived with the most exacting gay man who would bleach the bejasus out of our kitchen every day, he was incredibly fussy and wouldn't even let me leave the newspaper in the kitchen as he considered it a mess (I'd left it there because I thought he might want to read it!) After a bit, I learned his standards and in the communal areas, I upheld them, because it was his home, he didn't feel comfortable if I cleaned it to my standards (which are low) and I cared enough about his comfort, to make the effort to do things the way he wanted, because the way he did things, didn't make me uncomfortable and it wasn't honestly that much of an effort. I didn't claim to love him, I didn't have children with him, I didn't intend to spend the rest of my life sharing my home with him and yet it wasn't too much trouble to go to, to ensure that he could feel comfortable in his own home. And yet it's too much trouble for loads of men to that for their wives or partners? Hmmm. Either I'm an unusually nice person (I doubt you'll agree ) or they are unusually shitty people - probably not that likely. They're doing it because they've learned it and once their partner has complained about it on several occasions (whcih they then characterise as nagging) they are responsible for re-learning, women aren't responsible for their education.

I think we change it with our DCs. We stop saying 'why shouldn't men tell them'-in some cases you could wait until hell freezes over! and we start with our DCs. (In my case it was easy because they think a father does it anyway and copy).

I do think that women have to be truly equal though. There was a thread recently where a DH was doing a lot of housework but not 'up to DW standards'. I think you have to let go control. I don't do housework to anyone else's standards other then my own-if DH has different ones he can do it himself!! I know, from just observing, that my ironing, isn't as good as his-he has never commented-but if he did I would say 'do your own then'. He doesn't iron my trousers the way I like them ironed. Quite rightly- he says if I want them done a particular way I will have to do them myself.
There is another thread where the woman is at work and her DH wants to take the 2yr old to France for a few days to see his family. She knows he will be fine and DD will love it but doesn't want him to do it. Sensibly, it only took a few posts for her to say she was being unreasonable. Anyone could understand her not wanting to do it, but DD could cope without her quite happily-she had Daddy.

I still think that people should use their heads more before they enter a relationship. Wait until the 'honeymoon period' has worn off, see them with their family and friends, see them with too much too drink, go on holiday with them etc etc and walk away if not happy. Women have choice. No one needs a man.

I have lived with women who are complete slobs. You need someone with the same standards. DS's bedroom was a tip before he left home. It didn't bother me-I shut the door on it-just insisted he did his bit in the rest of the house. As it turns out, he likes tidy and order. If he liked chaos and mess there is no problem whatsoever if he lives with someone who is happy with chaos and mess! You need to find someone similar.
When I was a student I lived with 5 other women, I could see that we had different standards and that a rota would only cause resentment. We didn't bother and lived quite happily with chaos.
I have been to DS3s student house-he tells me it is tidy! He is happy, they are all happy. It is only a problem if one person has different standards.

It is a communication problem.

I would expect a man to prioritise DCs in the early years-but it helps if you choose a man with a similar background and you have discussed it first and you know what his childhood was like. If you choose one very different, with different expectations- you need to talk about it first. To know the man and expect something out of character without having discussed it seems over optimistic.

So you agree that both parents play a part, but you see only mothers as being responsible for change? Hardly seems fair, does it.

The reason I directed you to the other thread was to make the point that these women are unable to even recognise that they have a sexist partner. How on earth are they supposed to make a stand against it when they can't even see there's a problem?

You can't call all of those women stupid. Many of those posters have quite demanding jobs. The typical MN demographic is MC, degree-educated even if not in paid employment due to children. Calling these women silly is a cop-out explanation and doesn't reflect the reality. The reality is social conditioning and given that various surveys suggest that in the vast majority of relationships the woman still does more than 50% of the housework, I'd say it's pretty bloody effective social conditioning. I'd say that people who see through it and rebel against it are actually in the minority.

It's also worth remembering that a truly sexist man will not change, no matter what. Just like an abusive one. You can stand up to it all you like, but it's likely to make matters worse, not better. The only recourse in this situation is to leave. That's when people like you come out and talk about relationship breakdown and the damage on the DC etc. Talk about being unable to win. The point is that if many men shaped up, it wouldn't be necessary for the woman to leave in the first place.

So how do we overcome it? Dump the responsibility for change on women? Again? Adding to their already unfair workload? Or do we pressure men into changing by tackling the established patriarchy, which IMO seems fairer. Go after the sexist advertisements. Increase paternity leave. Increase access to childcare. These are things that can change the cultural conditioning women are subjected to without making them directly responsible for fixing a problem many of them aren't even aware exists.

I would say that both parents are raising DCs to not do things for themselves. Stand outside any junior school in the country at the end of the day and watch, DCs will immediately hand bags, lunch boxes ,everything they are carrying to mum or dad and mum or dad will be a 'pack horse' without query. Err....why......?-by aged 10 or 11 some DCs are taller than Mum but they still do it, without question. (note I said junior school, little infants are often so burdened they can't manage).

You may just get two people who are completely different. Judging by MN carpets are more important than people and shoes must come off. I am not going to be rude and ask visitors to take shoes off-if DH was a carpet worshipper- we would have problems. If both want shoes off they are OK. You do need to iron out these little things-people get blinded by love and then it is too late-habits have been formed.

Thinking about it further, why is it just assumed that men are slobs? My neighbour is a lovely woman, but the house is a tip. If I go around she will have to clear me a place to sit. A policeman was around recently to interview her about her stolen car, she saw him gazing around and said 'I haven't been burgled-it's always like this'. It is too, at Christmas she just puts up a tree in the middle of it all! She has a DH and 3 DCs, they all treat it as normal.
The only problem is when you get a very neat person with a slob!
When we met DH was too tidy for me, he apologised for his house being a bit sterile. Over the years we have rubbed off on each other and he is more laid back and I am a bit tidier. I would still rather have a blitz on the house every so often than have a daily(boring) system.
My DS is very young, he started off politely with his flat mate as in 'could you put the rubbish out?', he got more assertive as in 'will you wash your dishes-I want to use the sink?' He was wondering how he could get rid of him when he decided to go to the girlfriend. My DS certainly wouldn't have gone on for years the way women seem to with DHs.
You just need equality from the start-why put up with less?

Thank you so much stoptheclocks-the whole thing is so patronising that I think 'if that is feminism count me out'! They think Ormirian and sakura are saying the same, (even Ormirian and sakura), but I can't see much in common with the posts and they want to grind me down until I do! Ormirian is upset that I agree and must have said something wrong! I could have written it myself- but apparently this is not on unless I admit that sakura has a balanced, reason view and isn't damaging her DD.

Well I have skimmed through it and they have been married long enough to have DCs are they are still in that state! He didn't suddenly leave all that mess-he must have done it from the start.
My DSs friend is a good example. My DS found him a good friend but impossible to live with, he was utterly relieved when he chose to move out. He has gone to his girlfriends-he is not going to change and I expect, being in love, she will tidy up after him. She needs to use her head, sit him down on day 1 and tell him straight that she isn't a servant. Decide how they are splitting it. However I don't think she will, if they stay together and have DCs she could be writing an identical post.
I haven't had to do that. Both my DHs had lived alone, were much tidier people than me. They had done everything and carried on doing it. If DH needs a button sewing on he gets the sewing box and does it. You can get some indication when you first meet them. DH had a meal with my mother and straight away offered to wash up-she didn't refuse! His father had been a widower for years, his father cooked me a full roast dinner and he was over 80yrs. I have no idea if DHs father or mother or both made him capable, it doesn't really matter. He is.
If you have useless DH and you are doing everything for him (he will remain useless if you do) then it is useless moaning that fathers should make their DCs do housework-much better to at least train the next generation to think it normal.

Herbex- You could pat Exoticfruits on the head, that could make your posts more patronizing.

And I agree with Exotic and don't agree with Sakura so she's not on her own on here.

I am about to read the rest, but really if women want to make change with their own DCs they have to stop moaning and get on with it. Whatever is the point of saying his father should make him if the end point is he should do it? I don't believe that any DC does as the parent says, they do as they do. In my case it it simple,the father does it- so it is normal. If you have one that doesn't- you stop moaning about the patriarchy and work on the DC.
In my case I was the one at home-and I loved it-bringing up DCs beats any paid employment and no job is as interesting or valuable IMO, therefore I was the hands on person to get them to do it- from very young.

If anyone starts a thread on MN about DCs doing housework people will come on in droves saying 'how mean' they are only DCs. They won't let 8yr olds near kettles in case they scald themselves. Their idea of cooking with a 10yr old is cup cakes, when the 10yr old is fully capable of cooking a meal. They won't leave an 8yr old at home alone, the house will burn down and SS will be called. People won't give their DCs responsibilities and independence -and that is the result. This is DDs too and I have shared with many a woman who was just as bad as that OP! DCs live up, or down, to your expectations. If you think they are irresponsible and can't do anything they surely will be.

Why is the woman picking up after him? I can hear my mother now when I was a DC saying 'this house isn't a hotel' and 'what did your last servant die of?'

My DS is renting a flat. He took on a friend (male) to share the cost. It drove him mad, it was like an explosion of mess when he was in, he, according to my DS, couldn't put the rubbish out without being told that the rubbish needed putting out! He has now moved out to live with his girlfriend-probably a foolish girl who will do it for him. My DS is paying the rent on his own at the moment-he says it isn't worth the hassle.

Anyway-I will read it and 'divert' you with my thoughts.

I presume his father never made him do his share of housework either. Oh but of course, men don't have any responsibility for parenting...

I'm not upset. I'm diverted.

Well at least I know where it all started now! I am off to bed so will read later. After reading just the first post- so I have no idea where the thread went-it was a man whose mother picked up after him and never made him do his share of housework.

OK exotic. To come back to some points raised earlier in the thread, please read the posts in this thread and then come back and tell me that you don't think women have been conditioned to expect to do more than their fair share of housework and how it's not always easy for women to spot sexism in their own homes.

Why does it upset you?
The posts are chalk and cheese to me.

LOL no you don't need to argue that's true, you are perfectly free to assert random nonsense if you want. That is of course your prerogative but don't expect anyone to take you seriously. OrmIrian has herself said that she doesn't see any distinction between what she ahs posted and what Sakura has posted. You are the only one around here, who believes that they are saying significantly different things. Doesn't that give you pause for thought?

I have read them very carefully.
Ormirian's post made perfect sense, I agree 100%.
I don't agree with with sakura.
I see a world of difference between the two. If others think they are similar that is their prerogative-we are allowed to come onto a public thread and disagree.

I don't need to argue, that is my opinion. You are quite free to differ.

And again, a complete misrepresentation of another poster's arguments.

Sakura has never said that she is bringing her daughter up to be fearful.

She has said that she will tell her the facts about the statistical likelihood of where she is in danger and where she isn't.

Try and focus on the arguments that are being actually made Exotic, instead of running away with your own ideas of what you think are being made. I suggest you read the posts more carefully, that way when you argue, you will actually be arguing against things which have been said, rather than against things that have never been said. Tht would make your arguments more interesting and less pointless. HTH.

And so are women-they are mothers-they can change DCs attitudes.
Someone said 'why should they?' A good job the suffragettes didn't take that attitude or we would still be without a vote! There are thousands of years of patriarchy and it takes time-the progress in the last 100yrs has phenominal as opposed to what went before. Society is made up of individuals and they all need to do their bit and you get social change. You don't wait for 'them'-people don't willingly give up power!
I suppose I have a problem with it because I was brought up that women were equal, could do anything and didn't have to fear anything (including close emotional relationships with men)
My grandmother was very concerned about her 3 DDs education, she wasn't expecting them to just marry and be taken care of. I was brought up the same-in fact I didn't marry until quite late in terms of average. I certainly never saw it as an aim in life.
The difference in posts is- to quote OrmIrian-'I won't teach my DD to be scared of anything. Ever -which is great -as opposed to sakura who will fill her DD with so much fear that she won't be able to trust a man enough to live with one. My argument is bring up your DD to handle anything and make her own judgements.

The posts speak for themselves.

why are you ignoring statistics and facts in favour of anecdotal evidence exoticfruits ?

I know the patriarchy and their henchwomen have never been too keen on hard facts, preferring instead to rely on "feelings" or "hunches" to make laws, but I am presenting you with the cold, hard facts here and I think feminists should take notice of them.

OUr daughters are more likely to be killed by their husbands than anyone else.

Fact.