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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are society's restrictions on men's appearance never mentioned?

212 replies

Cattleprod · 06/04/2011 08:58

I've seen and participated in a number of discussions over the past year or so, on mumsnet and real life, which have focussed on stereotypical expectations of womens and girls appearance based on gender. The overwhelming sea of pink in girls clothes shops, shaving/waxing various body parts, 'princess' type slogans, cosmetic surgery, length of skirts, high heels, styles of underwear, that sort of thing.

The point always comes up that it is unfair that so much value and judgement is placed on a woman's physical appearance, and of course it is terrible that anybody should be judged on physical or aesthetic aspects that they haven't chosen themselves, or have had forced on them by situation or society.

But it got me thinking, that although a lot of the unwritten expectations related to appearance, and the perhaps more sinister ones (eg. she was wearing a short skirt so was asking to be molested) relate to women, far more of the overt expectations, those that invite comment and even punishment, that I have come across have been applied to men and boys.

From the rule at my school that a boy's hair must not reach his collar, to the expectation in many offices that a man must wear a suit and tie, have short hair and be clean shaven, to my little boy being laughed at when I put a plain clip in his hair to keep it out of his eyes. Men just aren't as free to look different from 'the norm'. Any man that ventures out in a skirt, or lipstick, high heels, a pashmina etc. is likely to be met with incredulous stares and unpleasant comments, and in extreme cases, violence. Yet these are things that we as women can wear freely, safe in the knowledge that we can also choose to wear traditional mens clothing largely without derogotary comments (as Sandi Toksvig and many other women often do).

So, aside from obviously wanting to stamp out appearance-based prejudice that still exists as mentioned above, does there not seem to be the space or inclination for us as women to celebrate the fact that we do generally have more freedom than men to dress as we wish? I know there are boundaries set by religion, occupation, local society etc., but it is always the negative aspects of the spectrum of female appearance choices that are discussed, never the positive.

OP posts:
AyeRobot · 07/04/2011 12:47

There's a big thread about it

Sorry, I seem to have derailed this thread. Just thought it was an interesting point in relation to the title of this thread.

Ephiny · 07/04/2011 12:42

Same for me Milly - I think I bought DP a nice shirt once as a present (though that got promptly taken back and exchanged IIRC) - but would never have occurred to me either that I should be buying his everyday clothes, monitoring what clothes he has, 'getting him to buy clothes' etc. Though I did know women do this (my mother and MIL are both do for their husbands) I assumed it was a 'previous generation' thing.

I would find it a very weird and controlling situation if DP was buying all my clothes, deciding what I was 'allowed' to wear, checking up on what I have in my wardrobe etc, and it would be surely just as weird if I was to do it to him.

MillyR · 07/04/2011 12:10

It would never have occurred to me that I should by buying DH's clothes, encouraging him to buy his own clothes or that it was any of my concern in any way. It never occurred to me that other women had any involvement in what their husband's wore.

JaneS · 07/04/2011 12:01

OTOH at least for upper class women 100, or 150, or 200 years ago, the hobbies would be the defining feature. Probably that's true even 60 years ago, isn't it? As in, 'Mrs Williams, an avid flower-arranger and regular organizer of the WI Christmas lunch ....'.

Not sure whose point that supports, mind!

AyeRobot · 07/04/2011 12:00

More likely to be "Mother arrested for murder", unless you work as a teacher or nurse.

carminaburana · 07/04/2011 11:55

Seth - I know people had hobbies 50 years ago, but these hobbies were restricted to the home or local area and were not considered particularly significant. - so despite being a great cook/ dress maker/ painter etc, you were still defined by your occupation ie; you were a miner or a miners wife.
It's still true today - if I was arrested for murder the press would say ' Carmina Burana - ( insert occupation ) from London, was arrested today ' etc etc - they wouldn't list my hobbies ( thank god )

MakesCakesWhenStressed · 07/04/2011 11:23

I prefer buying DH's clothes to buying my own. I am a curvy girl (14 with small waist, big boobs and hips) and buying things like jeans are a pain in the arse. he, on the other hand, is over 6' with broad shoulders and long legs and is a dream to dress. Clothes shopping is far more fun when you can guarantee the clothes will look good.

Plus DH works longer hours than I do and I am less anti-social, so don;t mind the crowds in shops.

thumbwitch · 07/04/2011 00:26

I don't have any troubles getting DH to buy clothes - he quite likes buying clothes. He has good taste as well, mostly - what fucks me right off is that he refuses to change his decent/new clothes when he's doing some mucky job and therefore they're trashed within days of being bought. It's just so bloody wrong! He has realised now - after wearing the t-shirt he bought on our honeymoon (that he really liked) to cut down the monstera plant in our garden - the bastard thing's sap stains like walnut and it does NOT come out - so the t-shirt is ruined. That actually upset him so now he kind of sees my point - but he still only has possibly 2 undamaged t-shirts and 1 pair of unstained shorts because of his lack of care for his stuff.

I realise this is largely tangential - just wanted to offer him up as an example of a contradictory bloke who likes clothes shopping but fails to look after his clothes.

Another point - I know its historical accuracy may be in doubt since I got the info from G. Heyer's novels but - apparently the menservants in the 18th-19thC weren't averse to using "buckram wadding" and sawdust to remedy the deficiencies in their master's physique - it's not new.

noodle69 · 06/04/2011 21:38

I think men spend a lot of money on clothes where I am but not really work clothes. The men need the nike air max 90s (about £100 for a pair of trainers?!!), fred perry shirts (£50 now!!), nike/adidas trackies etc. Also havent read No Logo but I think everyone knows it is just marketing but loads of people still wouldnt be able to go out in no make trainers. Not the younger generations anyway.

There are loads of clothes that are marketed to men that are a complete rip off, just the same as women. Most men here are slaves to fashion and wouldnt be seen dead going out without all their brands on.

Blackduck · 06/04/2011 21:26

actually 9 times out of 10 I'd rather do anything else than go clothes shopping....

Blackduck · 06/04/2011 21:25

I get what you are saying about leaving it to him, but I guess there's a bit of me that just needs to deal with it. I know he will do it if I leave it (and has done - he recently did a stint in a resturant and needed trousers, shirts, ties and he went and sorted). I also don't spend an inordinate amount of time doing it either - I will literally be passing through MS menswear and go 'that will fit and do' and thats it. But I guess, for me, the more important point is just how little he buys into it. He'd rather do almost anything than go clothes shopping.

AyeRobot · 06/04/2011 21:11

See, it's this kind of thinking that I don't quite get - "as he'd be down to one shirt and a pair of trousers before it would even cross his mind". Can you explain? Not having a go, Blackduck, just trying to understand why you feel that you have to stop it getting to him only having one shirt and one pair of kecks. What would happen if he ended up with only the clothes he stood up in?

Blackduck · 06/04/2011 21:00

Thats what I meant by dp not being bothered. He won't go clothes shopping unless he absolutely has to, so I tend to pick up stuff on the way past for him, as he'd be down to one shirt and a pair of trousers before it would even cross his mind. He simply doesn't buy into it. He did the clothes thing as a younger man (for a short while) and then found other things! Thats not to say I don't know men who spend money on clothes, haircuts etc, but its to such a lesser degree when compared to most women I know.

As for the comment about if clothes dont matter try getting a teenager into tesco trainers - thats called marketing......try reading No Logo.

MillyR · 06/04/2011 19:04

Nesbo, I suppose that is a personal decision people have to make. I like the human body in many shapes and sizes, and would far rather see a real body than a suit.

AyeRobot · 06/04/2011 19:03

All of those options Grin

I can't get my head around it.

TeiTetua · 06/04/2011 18:55

Or is it that rather than "outsourcing their sartorial choices to their wives" the men are in the situation where the women hate what they choose to wear (or don't even bother with choosing) and insist on selecting the clothes themselves? Perhaps it's "He'd dress in rags if I didn't choose his clothes for him."

Another way to see it is that the men are refusing to play the fashion game that women are slaves to, and the women add to their own burdens by being slaves on their husbands' behalf.

So who's right?

Nesbo · 06/04/2011 18:47

Perhaps if you examples weren't male models the advantages of having well cut clothing to help a less than Adonis like physique would be a little more obvious!

AyeRobot · 06/04/2011 18:46

Judging by the occasional thread on MN (one running at the moment), there are quite a lot of men (or quite a lot of partners of MNers) who outsource their sartorial choices entirely to their wives. Now THAT is a topic ripe for feminist analysis. Or maybe it just comes under the topic of Wifework.

MillyR - there's a long history of illusion when it comes to clothing, hasn't there?

MillyR · 06/04/2011 18:10

Regardless of which gender is more or less stereotyped by clothing, it is astonishing that women would rather view a masculine fake padded shoulder than the tone of a real male shoulder under clothes, or that men would rather view a feminine padded and shaped bra than the real shape of a woman's breast under clothes. It must involve an extraordinary amount of fetishising of gender stereotyped clothing to get people to find it more appealing than the actual contours of the real human body.

I have a bit of a failure of imagination when it comes to understanding how this:

brian-kinney.net/fanart/jennifer_brian8.jpg

is perceived as more attractive than this:
brian-kinney.net/blends/blendcontest3_pic2.jpg

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 06/04/2011 17:34

but it was presumably international, not just in Britain?

PenguinArmy · 06/04/2011 17:34

Is the Victorian era when people started to be able to attempt to go up the class system as the industrial revolution kicked off and people were able to make money instead of being born into it.

feel free to add grammar as required Grin

TeiTetua · 06/04/2011 17:33

Take it from Margaret Mead:

thumbwitch · 06/04/2011 17:31

Reaction to the dissoluteness of George IV then? He nearly bankrupted the country with his overspending, didn't he? Maybe that was it...

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 06/04/2011 17:29

Evangelical religion was part of it apparently, but I don't see why that would make gender difference increase. You are right that it wasn't all Queen V, it started before her anyway.

Deliainthemaking · 06/04/2011 17:28

I dont thinkt he pressurewill ever be equal

but its slowly creeping in tho more men are anorexic now than ever