Dads and babies

Sod it, misread march for may, contributed to a dead thread in the most tedious way. Please shoot me quickly.

This has gone all over the place, and I'm wordy anyway, so please forgive.

I'm a man who has been lucky enough to share childcare in various combinations. My partner was able to express milk, so we fed jointly during the early years; we have both spent months as sole carer of our children; we have both had times when we are working but 'responsible'. Now we have arrived at a situation where she is responsible during the working week (but at work), I do after-school and holidays, she does weekends. A lot of different patterns, and a lot of different negotiations, in other words.

We haven't always handled this spectacularly well in terms of our relationship, but we have always adopted basic unstated rules that (a) we don't criticise each other for what each does when sole or main carer and (b) we try to distinguish between what we feel is right for us and what we feel is good for the children. The flashpoints have come when we forget the last-when she attacks me for allowing our son into our bed because she thinks it bad for him, for example. And behind that is the basic fact that our kids have hurtful preferences, which place strain-what are you doing to make them dislike me-when the other is simply parenting. We negotiated and muddled through, but it wasn't easy, and I think both of us have at times wished to be able to resort to general stereotypes (Dads are like this, Mums like this) and felt the fact we can't strains rather than improves our relationship. I hope that in some ways addresses the OP's point-that it is indeed possible to think in terms of 'if x does this, then x has control' and not to say 'mothers know best', but equally to note that that is not as easy as it seems, and that the key is that doing stuff brings the right to comment, otherwise it is nasty manipulative control (my BIL very guilty of this).

The thread seems to have become a more general 'who is responsible for men not doing enough' and on that I would say that we are very, very lucky to have been able to do what we have done, and I really do not feel the options are available to all. Ultimately I tend to judge couples' decisions not on 'man' 'woman' but simply on whether they at the outset started from a point of shared care, and then moved from it pragmatically. There are many SAHPs who want equal care, but can't have it; and equally many who assume that equal care is unnecessary at the outset. If you are trying to blame men or women, you have to acknowledge that what you do is far less important than the process by which you get to it.

But the idea of father's rights or of general ceding of ground is nauseous-it is basically a rather tragic men's rights agenda which says 'we can't do this stuff, so we don't, but because we can't that shouldn't be held against us and we should have equal say'. As long as it is generally true that mothers continue to do the majority childcare, the generalisation that mother should have power must remain sacrosanct, both in individual relationships and in law.

you can live it and talk about it noodle - they are not mutually exclusive. some would say it's better to do both, rather than just live it and assume because you are able to, so is every other woman.

Oh I agree Lenin, the structural stuff is really important too. After all it doesn't really matter if a parent (man or woman) wants to step on the childcare front by (for example) working flexibly if the workplace doesn't allow it.

In any case I think the article is about the impact of both how things are structured (maternity leave etc) and the biological stuff. I had a very equal relationship with my dh, we'd been together for almost ten years, knew each other very well and were probably about as in love as we've ever been. And having children drove a coach and horses through a lot of that. Because you can't share being pregnant, giving birth or breastfeeding and maternity leave is very much built on the assumption that women do the whole baby thing, while men provide support to a greater or lesser degree. I can remember really resenting that and the real equality didn't come back (in my mind at least) for a few years.

If you dont put up with in the first place and if they do it make them do it as I said just go out and leave them do it etc. If they still carry on then leave them.
Dont be scared to do it. If everyone changed and didnt put up with it then it wouldnt happen as those men wouldnt have any wives/gfs and that would put a stop to it. It is achieveable and if everyone does it then it changes things. If everyone makes a stand against something and stands up to something then it wont happen (or will happen less frequently). I think it is entirely possible.

Im not saying it doesnt exist but I think some women do enable it. It might be a different view to others but I strongly believe it. I have seen it in RL and I honestly dont understand why people put up with it. I think my arguments on the subject are borne out of frustrations when I do see it happen to people. Especially as it doesnt happen to everyone, and I believe it doesnt have to. I dont mean to offend or come across as cold hearted.

Less talk and more action if you really want to change things. You can talk about it till the cows come home but if you dont live it whats the point?

Noodle- you don't half get patronised on MN.
I think you're one of the wisest posters I've read.
You've made some common-sense decisions, and I think it really grates with some of the posters on here.

she, lol, not he.

if it was an 'informed thing', simple as that, don't you think that woman in the paper wouldn't have fallen into the trap? the card-carrying t-shirt wearing fawcett society member?

i bet he spent a good few years sussing out the equal parenting potential of would-be husband.

naive in the extreme. sometimes rl and societal expectations get in the way of utopia.

I dont think it is luck. I think its an informed thing through discussing in depth about kids, testing a man to see what he is like with kids/around kids, discussing everything before hand, how much he does for you before kids, proving that your worth it sort of thing.

If he does all that for a good few years and proves himself as a loyal husband that will do anything for you, then I think you can figure out what he would be like as a dad with no surprises.

noodle - you have been very lucky.

but i think you may be falling into the same trap you are accusing older women of. you cannot make assumptions based on your own little corner of rl.

there are still an awful lot of very young mums who are not experiencing life as you see it.

'
I don't think people from different generations realise how much attitudes have changed since they had their children.'

I agree with this also I think the vast majority of men nowadays are willingly to help/get involved and do so nowadays. I am a lot younger than most on here and when I was at school none of the mums I knew were SAHMS unless they were single mums. The dads dropped off at school, looked after their kids, did stuff around the house. I saw both genders do the opposite role things etc. Its different if you are older as a lot of people grew up when things were much different for men and women.

BlingLoving.

I think your way is the way to equality.

Men of your generation want to be involved with their children,
We need women of your generation to want the parents to be equal.

I don't think people from different generations realise how much attitudes have changed since they had their children.

We raised our children equally and are reaping the rewards of the children having two main carers.

'Actually I agree with Lenin.

Why is it women's job to make men take on their responsibilities?'

Its not but I think its a mans job to prove to me he is good enough for me. If he isnt he wouldnt make the grade and I would move on. I also agree with Nooka on family models make you the way you are and will make the difference to whether you are the type of person to say to a man or not.

'which could mean everything from "right, I'm off to Pilates, then I might go for a drink with the other girls after. See you in a couple of hours or so. Don't forget DDs medicine when you feed her" to simply not criticising if we (men) do something wrong different to how you would with our children.

Exactly I also agree with this. The ones I know that complain about not having time to do anything and their husband/boyfriend gets to do stuff usually dont just say look I am doing it, end of. The men in their lives come home and say they are going out/having a lie in/going away for the weekend etc but they usually havent got the bottle to say it back. I know a few people that do this. I do it all the time to my husband stuff like Im going clubbing on Friday so can you look after LittleNoodle and I will let you have a lie on on Sunday etc'.

If he said no or complained about it then just say he cant go out anywhere and dont let him lie in. If he is reluctant he would soon come round to your way of thinking. Im lucky he never is but if I went out with some of my mates boyfriends they wouldnt know what had hit them and I wouldnt enable their behaviour in the way they do. Tbh though I just would never of gone out with these men in the first place. You wont get an equal, loving partner if you dont think you deserve one.

"Actually I agree with Lenin.

Why is it women's job to make men take on their responsibilities?"

You're right - it's not. We (men) should just be doing these things. But at the same time, women need to give us the 'space' to exercise these responsibilities - which could mean everything from "right, I'm off to Pilates, then I might go for a drink with the other girls after. See you in a couple of hours or so. Don't forget DDs medicine when you feed her" to simply not criticising if we (men) do something wrong different to how you would with our children.

Even men with the best intentions will defer to/feel crowded out by their partners in the childcare arena: we may want to do more, but lack confidence, and being told we're doing it wrong instead of being given the time and space to work it out for ourselves will just discourage us. [sorry this does sound all "boo hoo, poor menz"].

I think there's a difference between making men take responsibility, and giving us (men) the opportunity to take responsibility.

I read this one and then found that one and thought there was a huge amount of congruence between them. I don't think it is women's responsibility to make men do anything (too abstract apart from anything else) but I think we should all reflect on our own behaviour and the routines that our families have taken up and reflect on whether they are healthy, and if not what we can do about them. But then I take the perspective that the only behaviour I can change is my own, and that madwoman is right, change can and does happen one step at a time.

My own family set up with dh as SAHD, has an influence on not just us, but our children and both our friends and their friends. Just to show that there are other ways families can work. Just as when I was a young woman I was hugely influenced by working with a group of fabulous high achieving women, all of whom had older children - it certainly showed me that it was possible to enjoy both family and work and that although there were compromises it could all work out really well.

Hear, hear HerBeX.

I'm really surprised how little crossover there is between this thread and the one in AIBU www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1180066-to-find-this-article-on-motherhood-inFURiating I don't tend to get involved in the child-centered threads on here as I don't yet have any, but I am interested in the dynamics of relationships and how feminism has an impact on them.

It bloody irritates me to read over and over again, that it's women's fault that men behave badly because they should be making them behave well. FGS, is that another fucking job we have to do? I'm knackered, I can't take that on as well....

Actually I agree with Lenin.

Why is it women's job to make men take on their responsibilities?

It's not our job. It's their's. If you have to make someone do something they should be doing anyway, there's something wrong there.