At wit's end with DD's behaviour and poor school performance

I have a friend in your exact position and she despairs too. What I would say is that it might not be worth your energy worrying about switching schools, my friend has actually moved her DD and the same problem continues. So don’t beat yourself up about not being able to move her. I’m afraid I don’t have advice really about how to manage your DD’s actual behaviour!!! What has helped a teeny bit with my friend’s DD is giving her a BIT more freedom as she was pushing against their boundaries all the time. But tbf it sounds like you’ve given her freedoms that my friend hadn’t (they were VERY strict and it was backfiring) so might not actually be helpful to you!!

so really just saying don’t be too worried about the school, I don’t honestly know if that is the key factor. Obviously only you know your DD!! They do get way more into the makeup stuff around this age, don’t think there’s any way to avoid that part. But the socialising at the total expense of schoolwork is a tricky one to navigate. X

Why do you ‘insist’ she does three extra curricular activities if she’s telling you she doesn’t want to?

Tell her being smart doesn't excuse bad manners. I would ground her till you see an improvement.

No advice, but sympathy. On the plus side, your DD did fantastic things in the summer, and she does at least still go to her sports, my DD would refuse to get in the car and scream for hours if she didn't want to do it. I understand why you make her do things, because the alternative is pretty unhealthy.

Year 8 seems to be the year of no motivation in our house too, and life ambition seems to be limited to ballet flats and a handbag. Like you, we are strict on phone and limited spending money on rubbish. It is incredibly sad and frustrating that girls who seem to have no ambition or drive, despite all the opportunity available to them.

We are hoping to try and get her to identify some short term goals to aim for. Currently there is working for a school trip she wants to go on (although I'm fairly sure she only wants to go because she thinks she'll get to be on her phone all the way there and back, and thinks there will be shopping trips). Exams and Career are too far off as goals. We are fighting the tide of an extremely materialistic and superficial culture amongst girls, it is very irritating.

@IAmAllOutOfIdeas there are clearly some issues, and a few things stand out to me in your post.

Firstly, her teachers do not hate her. I am sure you know this, and the hate is just what she is saying. They would like her to behave. They can see (from primary reports and the work she does) that she is able. Her behaviour thus is frustrating. But they don’t hate her, I promise. Even the most challenging student never inspired hatred in me, even when I really wished they were not in the school (which applied to about three students in my teaching years) bc of the damage they caused.

Secondly – she is bored? Really? I wonder if that is true. If she is bored then that suggests the work is too easy; but that seems unlikely as I imagine she is in, for example a high set for maths based on her ability; she is learning an MFL which will be new and challenging; detailed science concepts, complex computing, challenging English texts – all these will be in front of her. If she is in fact doing the bare minimum, is it that she is daunted by the work and worries she may not do well? That’s not unusual IME with students who have previously excelled. What does she say about it?

Finally the sporting hobbies that she hates – why do you insist she must continue? Has she given them a good go and decided she no longer enjoys them? It’s OK for a YP to drop hobbies. It’s a good idea to do something outside school for sure – what might she enjoy instead? Guides/Scouts? Martial arts? Athletics? Drama club? Singing lessons? Every one of my 3 DC had things they liked, did for a while (like, a few years) and then dropped. It was fine. They all kept going with at least one or two activities until age 18, but they were the ones they chose to do.

I would have a discussion with her about some of this and see how she wants to go forward – obviously the current situation is not sustainable, for her or for you really. It's hard to take a long-term view when you are 12 or 13. You mention other DC - are they older? What did they end up doing? Is there an example there for her to follow?

Year 8 and year 9 are often the really tricky years at secondary, most teachers hate year 9 because they’re old enough to have settled in the school and teenage enough to only care about socialising and clothes and (sometimes) sports but not yet in the exam years where most of them buckle down and do some work.

teenagers gonna teenage whether they have phones or not.

suggestions:
sit with her and do homework with her or make her do it. Then reward for doing it.
sanctions rarely work on teens. Many teens just respond with anger and aggression (as she is doing at school).
focus on the key subjects - maths and English. Does she have anything she wants to study/a career as an adult? If so starting on work experience can be good (eg stables if work with animals, St John cadets if anything medical etc).
start talking about choices for what she wants to study.

To me it sounds like she needs to be given more responsibility - ideally for something meaningful. I'll be honest: I can't think of anything, but I do think responsibility makes young people grow up at this stage. PP mentioned work experience or volunteering (especially regularly), that would be a good idea, if you can find anywhere that will take someone her age.

If she really thinks the material is too easy, ask if she would be willing to do a harder version of the homework that she's currently being assigned.

This is her lesson to learn, OP. Let her get herself into some trouble and back up the school when she does. At the moment, she believes she's bright and doesn’t need to work hard - arrogance of youth all over!

I'd speak to her form tutor/head of year about it. Chances are, when's there's something real at stake, she'll buckle down because she won't want to fail.

I remember year 7 and year 8 to be really boring, nothingy years TBH. I didn't really enjoy school until we were streamed in yr 9 and subjects got more complex and interesting.

I was very similar at school - top of the class in primary, bored, irritating and boy crazy by y8. Try and have a proper conversation with her teachers/HOY- is she genuinely bored or (like I was) starting to find I wasn't the brightest anymore so styling it out as I didn't want my star to slip?
Let her stop the martial art - I did MA as a young teen because my dad insisted. Hated it. And when I got attacked a few years later, I didn't think to use martial arts, I just hit the fucker.

Lots of secondaries don’t stream children any more. Maybe there isn’t the challenge in her lessons that she needs if the teacher is focussed on the ones that need additional support.

Most importantly, doing these activities is good for her physical health and if she didn't do them, frankly, she would rot in her room and do naff all else.

I think you are from a much more affluent background than us but three sporting activities per week is actually a lot. And I thought she taught herself a non-Latin alphabet language when left to her own devices, so where's the evidence that she'd rot in her room?

You sound quite controlling with quite a narrow view of what teenagerdom 'should' look like. You say she's not unhappy, so why is she deliberately sabotaging things for herself? Get curious.

Shes basically chatty, bright, social, questioning and disinterested in consequences. Long term I'm sure she will go far, school is only fleeting. There is certainly something going on for her to react, may just be teenage hormones, a gobby friendship group, school teething issues. She sounds quite impulsive however which makes me wonder about ADHD or ADD.

Also why is she doing three sports or your choice and not three clubs of her choice? Surely she should be doing something which brings her joy and makes her feel fulfilled? It sounds like you’re controlling rather than supportive, you're not allowing growing agency. Helping her reflect and weigh up pros and cons and make decisions is a step towards adulthood.

“She's bored out of her mind there”

Sadly, I can understand this all too well - while teachers are supposed to stretch the brightest while not leaving the weaker members of the class behind, what actually happens is that they teach to the middle, so I can understand your DD’s boredom. The trouble is that if she becomes disaffected, she’ll struggle to catch up later - there’s nothing more dispiriting for a teacher than a bright DC who fails to reach their potential because of behaviour or attitude. So what to do about it? There must be something that your DD wants, even if it’s just to go out with her mates and buy make-up, so make that dependent on good grades. If she enjoys learning languages, encourage her with the language she is learning at school - lessons may be tedious, but it doesn’t stop her from learning extra vocabulary or going the extra mile on her own. If you can run to it, offer a weekend away in the appropriate country if she puts in the effort. If the “cool” girls roll up their skirts, then so will she - not a lot to be done about it, although if the school uniform allows trousers, consider making her wear them. Once she gets to year 10 when they’re starting their GCSE courses, things tend to improve.

Is she the child most likely to high achieve in your house ( if she were to play ball )?maybe she is kicking back against expectations , feeling the pressure you say she is excellent at martial arts maybe that's more pressure to succeed and never fail . Could the pressure of expectation be making her deliberately fail to remove some pressure to keep her end up at all times . I was that child in the 1970 s. I came out of it after a couple of years of happily failing I woke up and realised I was only hurting myself

Oh hello girls in year 8 🫠🫠🫠 we had this last year, very similar indeed!

However, we seem to have got a lot of it over with and Year 9 is plainer sailing already, the ‘disruptive behaviour’ and ‘poor effort’ points have massively reduced (all for talking and generally having a jolly old time) It seems for us to have been reasonably short and sharp and is now mostly out of her system.

Stay calm, stay firm, stay consistent, this too shall pass.

Also shes unlikely to be the highest achiever at secondary, loads more kids, top sets still but pushed off top spot potentially . If she only values top results, she may stop trying. The gobbiness could be a cover.

Can you get her a school counseling and if not private counseling. Enable her to unpick whats going on and help her find her own solutions.

@IAmAllOutOfIdeas Is puberty a factor? Hormones can create havoc. Another vote for letting her drop some of the extra curricular stuff. I think she either sounds bored or has found things easy so far and hasn't learned to learn stuff she doesn't want to or is not interested in.

If she’s really academically bright and good at her sport have you investigated the local private schools with a scholarship and bursary?

She is likely to have to up her game behaviour wise before they accept her but it’s worth talking to her about whether she’d want that option if feasible.

Oh and she is unhappy. That’s why she doesn’t care about the consequences etc. she feels like everyone hates her (she’s not emotionally mature enough yet to equate it’s linked to her behaviour) and she’s chatty to anyone and social because she is in a place where she’s longing to be liked. The fact that incurs consequences is irrelevant to her because she needs that feeling to counteract how she feels about her teachers opinion of her.

Id arrange a meeting with school, understand their position but ask for a workable plan to support DD to change her thinking around this. It’ll start with with small praise for anything she does that’s alongside the rules - even if it’s expected she needs to feel noticed for it.

Shes rebelling.
Its a fsct a private school is no better than a state..only for you to resent any more 'trouble'.
Taking her phone and limiting apps is in my mind a very controlling tatic..as well as being involved in clubs or sports she wabts to drop.
She is finding her own self.
Nothing like a rebel when you are trying to be up with the jones in your affluent area.

With kindness, all the details about how bright your DD is, that the school's sixth form is outstanding, that she beats her opponents at martial arts are just noise really.

She's on the cusp of being a teenager, has more freedom than she had at primary school and working out who she is and how the world works.

From what you'd said:
She attends school, is very sociable and gets maybe a weekly detention for skirt length.

Her behaviour at school contributes to the low level disruption in the classroom, which is frustrating for her teachers who will nevertheless have seen it all before and know that it's a developmental phase

She's academically able, loves drawing, takes part in activities and exercise out of school.

She does homework (albeit the bare minimum)

She likes going to Costa and Superdrug with her friends.

That all sounds very, very normal for Y8 and Y9 tbh. Frustrating for you and her dad, who want to see her make the most of her potential and fly academically. That's what you want. It doesn't sound like she wants that (at the moment). That does not mean that she will not decide at a later date that that is what she wants and get her head down.

I would step back. She's already receiving sanctions in school for breaking rules. You don't need to punish her twice by stopping her meeting her friends at Costa.

Trying to impose your views and values on her at this age is more likely to have the opposite effect that you want. I would recommend a lighter approach. Rather than long conversations about how not to break the school rules, just 'Another detention? Oh, well.'. Rather than 'You got X in your Y6 tests, you should/could be getting Y now' just 'Well, I can imagine that you'll work a bit harder than that when GCSEs come around, but that's not for a few years'.

Give her some space to think things through for herself, rather than giving her a stance to argue against.

She sounds just like me! I pretty much stopped playing piano (I was very good), didn’t work hard at all. Also did quite a bit of bunking off school. Because I was bright, I still did pretty well in my GCSEs, but nowhere near as good as I could have. Dropped out of sixth form after the first year to start working. I have a career that I love, so have landed on my feet - I grew up a lot in my late teens and worked hard.

My parents were loving and kind, but very hands off with education - they felt it was up to me if I wanted to waste my time at school. It may have been different if I had been pushed more / they had been stricter, but I’m very happy with where I’ve ended up.

Also with kindness, you and possibly DH need to reflect on why you're at your wits end with this perfectly normal, albeit irritating, tween/teen behaviour. Her school performance is hers, not yours, and it,'s what she's doing now. It isn't a predictor of her future.

@IAmAllOutOfIdeas Most kids rebel at home. It seems like your dd can't. You force her to do sports she doesn't want to do! She's building up anger and resentment and school is her safe place where it gets out.

You got your priorities twisted. You can tell her that you expect from her to be polite and work in school and do her homework. As how she spends her PERSONAL FREE time just butt out! She sounds like a creative smart girl who learns languages and is artistic on her free time- let her do just that! You're killing her spirit- she needs to feel that she has some freedom of choice in her life or she will refuse to do something- and that something is being a good student which She's capable of- because she doesn't dare go against your draconian extra curricular expectations. Just stop.