Teen DC sharing a room on a school trip with DC of opposite sex

At DD's school, the transgender children that we know of are all girls (that is, natal girls). As trans-boys they choose not to use the girls' loos any longer. They also choose not to use the boys' loos, possibly because they would feel unsafe and presumably also because they need the sanitary bins, so they use the staff facilities.

I don't know whether a trans-girl who chose to do so would use the girls' loos, and whether the other children would then have any choice in the matter - so far it hasn't come up.

I also don't know what the school does on residential trips, where accommodation is split into two or three girls to a room, separate floors for girls and for boys. Are any school overnights compulsory? I have a feeling the geography field trips might be.

There was certainly some teenage teeheeing last year that two of the boys were a couple and had got away with sharing a room, but as someone else has said, there's no pregnancy risk involved so the school probably isn't too bothered.

signed,
thanks for bringing it to our attention OP

surely the answer is for male accommodation, female accommodation and "other" in these situations? Anyone choosing "other" has to have specific parental consent. Male/Female is as "assigned at birth" or whatever the phrasing is.

It really does open up a whole host of questions.

My DS goes to an all boys school. Will they now take trans boys?

He was on Scout camp at the weekend - split into girl/boy tents. One of the girls, a self declared 'tomboy' wanted to share with the boys. She was denied. I think that was the sensible choice, but wonder whether that could've been challenged?

@MrsMcGarry there is no transphobia on this thread. I want my unit to be accessible to trans children and girls. Parents WILL take their girls out of GG if we can't guarantee single sex accommodation.

Girls have the right to have their boundaries respected and their voices heard. If they don't want to share accommodation with someone they knew as a boy, is it ethical for me to insist that they do, or they don't come on camp? Is it ethical for me not to tell this parents (without going into specifics about the trans child)?

Is it ethical to tell girls that their girlhood is based on their innate sense of being a girl (as GGHQ told me) and that their biology is not important?

I can't believe anything in the same week that Telford is in the news, we are telling girls yet again that their right to privacy and dignity is not important (because in GG transchildren can chose which accommodation they want to use; this policy isn't extended to anyone else).

Lesbians and women have committed sex offences but at a much much lesser rate than men. And as already stated, the risk of sexual activity I believe is remote - but it stays on my radar because if a 14 year old girl in my care gets pregnant or an STD, what on Earth do I tell her parents?

Weirdly I don't look at my teenage son and see a rapist either FFS.

That doesn't mean that I look at my teenage daughter and automatically think she doesn't need to preserve her safety or dignity.

I doubt any parents look at you and think 'paedo' do they - but you didn't presumably object to the DBS check.

Lesbians certainly have been knwn to sexually attack women.

I think I'm realising that the transphobia on here is actually based on misandry. I don't actually look at my teenage son and see a potential rapist.

That isn't to say I don't understand the statistics that show that men are far more likely to commit violence against women and that we need to address those issues. I just don't see continued sex segregation as the best answer to male violence.

@MrsMcGarry

So AgnesBadenPowell - do you also think that every parent should be informed if one of your guides came out to you as female? Would you have the same concerns about a lesbian guide sharing accomodation with straight female guides?*

No. Lesbian activity does not result in unplanned pregnancy. We already have procedures in place to deal with this.

I'm not advocating anyone outing a child as transgender. I am against GG not telling parents that their female child may be sharing with a male child and therefore preventing them from giving informed consent. I am against a trans child being able to exercise their choice in terms of accommodation but not the other children.

Surely your safeguarding procedures should look at each child and each situation as an individual set of risks? Nobody is suggesting taht you stop doing this - if you have genuine concerns about the behaviour of a trans child you should be allowed to bring that up, just as you would if you had genuine concerns about the behaviour of a cis child. Base your assesment on the risk of them acting like a dick, not on whether they were born with one

I have asked GG for guidance as to how leaders risk assess appropriately - and with sensitivity and discretion - if we have concerns about an individual trans child. They have not answered me. I am still chasing them.

I would also argue that bepenised persons already have their own organisation - Scouts. GG is one of the few all female organisations left. Why should girls keep giving up their space for entitled boys and men?

I'm our school's education visit co ordinator and when this situation started getting publicity I asked county what their policy would be if it ever came up. They were totally bemused and said they hadn't thought about it. I got the feeling that they thought I was crazy. I put the question to them again this week, I think they are taking it a lot more seriously now.

Mrvgarry - given that straight and gay girls have the same genitals, periods, beasts etc I'm not sure what the problem would be. Males and females aren't separated to stop sexual attraction - they're separated to ensure dignity and privacy. Did you not realise that?

So AgnesBadenPowell - do you also think that every parent should be informed if one of your guides came out to you as female? Would you have the same concerns about a lesbian guide sharing accomodation with straight female guides?

Lesbians don't tend to rape women. Men, including teenage boys - have been known to. Hope that helps.

[Surely that is the fucking point?]

Already happening in a state secondary age school:

"Gordon's School in West End is drawing up plans to accommodate transgender pupils.

The state-run boarding school, which accepts children aged 11-18, will allow pupils to wear the uniform of the gender they identify as, be addressed by a different name or pronoun and use gender-neutral toilets.

They will also be allowed to change which boarding house they sleep in, to reflect their gender identity."

www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/gordons-school-transgender-pupils-change-13764525

Sorry - that should say came out to you as lesbian.

So AgnesBadenPowell - do you also think that every parent should be informed if one of your guides came out to you as female? Would you have the same concerns about a lesbian guide sharing accomodation with straight female guides?

Surely your safeguarding procedures should look at each child and each situation as an individual set of risks? Nobody is suggesting taht you stop doing this - if you have genuine concerns about the behaviour of a trans child you should be allowed to bring that up, just as you would if you had genuine concerns about the behaviour of a cis child. Base your assesment on the risk of them acting like a dick, not on whether they were born with one.

I’ve signed this. It’s crucial.

Hi @TeenTimesTwo thanks for the heads up.

I would recommend that anyone with a DD in GirlGuiding or who believes that the NSPCC will back parents who are concerned about mixed sex accommodation head over to the linked thread.

From my perspective as a leader, the risk of sexual activity between a trans girl and girl is a remote but serious concern, as the outcome could be catastrophic. I think we would also do well to remember that gender identity does not indicate sexual orientation - a trans girl is not necessarily a gay male.

My most pressing concerns are around girlguiding unilaterally deciding that GG has always been a single gender organisation; around the endorsement of gender stereotypes that GG has done so much to fight over the past 100 years and that GG’s own research shows is damaging to girls; plus the fact that the trans child’s dignity, privacy and choice is put above that of all other children present. I will not stand by and let an 12 year old girl struggling with her first periods and the usual embarrassment that comes with puberty be labelled a transphobe for not wanting to share accommodation with a biological boy. I will not stand by and let that girl feel like she either has to give up her boundaries or leave girlguiding.

There is too much fear that such a boy-to-girl teen is doing this for dubious reasons

You are so right. I've never met a teenage boy even slightly interested in getting into teenage girls' knickers.

Oh hang on...

I think that thinking of this as a trans issue is unhelpful. Whilst trans kids are caught up in it, so are children who have been abused, who have any kind of body dysmorphia, those with self esteem issues (especially those relating to coping with body change during puberty)

The key issue is fro us to carefully consider when and where we think it is important to differentiate by sex and when are where we think it is important to differentiate by gender.

My view is that it is never appropriate to separate children or to treat them differently because of gender and we should limit when we do so by sex.

@BringOnTheScience. Are you against all types of sex segregation? If we are going to allow male bodies young people into spaces designated for female bodied YP and vice versa, why segregate in the first place. Why not just have mixed sex arrangements?