I can't get my head around Israel and Palestine

Once there was Palestine. Then the Brits ruled it for a bit until it got too hard, so we gave up and asked the UN what to do.
Meanwhile there had been Hitler, and so there were high level calls for there to be a Jewish homeland where they wouldn’t be a persecuted minority. Jews wanted it to be in Palestine, they lobbied for that and got it. Millions of Jews moved there. This made the people who already lived there pretty upset and they fought back. Everyone agreed that this was jolly naughty of them, and Israel got given a shed load of weapons by America for defence. Israel decided that the best way to make its borders safe was to keep invading and seizing its neighbours land. This made the neighbours v sad and they fired rockets at Israel. So then Israel made more weapons and invaded more territory. Etc.

Someone once explained it to me as being a bit like an abused child who then grows up to become an abuser.

This probably sounds biased. But British friends of mine have worked out there in a neutral role and they did not come back able to say anything good about Israel. There is a lot of low level day to day persecution of Palestinians, eg Israeli soldiers kicking in doors to shoot Palestinian pets for fun, etc.

It’s a mess.

OP try this www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/11/20/18079996/israel-palestine-conflict-guide-explainer

Today I opened a book in a random way. It was written by a politician. This is what I read: "No peace process can ever be effective unless both sides are fully committed to it. One of the most startling acts of peace in my lifetime was when President Anwar Sadat of Egypt addressed the Knesset. He and Menachem Begin, his Israeli counterpart, wanted an end to the destructive war that was raging between their countries. It was an effective peace process only because of equal commitment and there will be no similar success between Israel and Palestine until there is an equal and bilateral determination to end the conflict, so most Western intervention is doomed at the outset."

You don't have to have a stance, rumred but start by reading about Abraham and his grandson Jacob, also called Israel, and work your way through the centuries.

When the British had care of the country from about 1917 on, it was called Palestine. Had it been part of the Ottoman Empire before that for quite a long time? I must look it up. What was it called then?

Anyway, if you are religious or not religious, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as asked or directed to in one of the psalms, (122?) which was written a very long time ago.

There isn't any place in the world where all hope must be given up, but some places come a bit near hopeless.

Jews lived in the area way longer than muslims - FACT

There has always remained a Jewish population in the area. Even in that has varied in numbers at different times- FACT

The Jews built the city of Tel Avivin 1909 - FACT

The Jewish Palestinian football team played a world tour with Australia in 1939 -FACT

The Jews did not just turn up in 1948 and say sod off we are stealing your houses! Which is what posts like your and social media propaganda want people to believe.

The population of Israel is native Jewish arabs, refugee families from the war, refugees from Syria, Iran and other Muslim majority countries in the area. Plus Russia, Europe immigrants that have experienced antisemitism in their own countries. On top of that you obviously have American and European jews.

However most importantly you have Palestinian people living inside the state of Israel. Over 20% of people living in Israel are Palestinians. Some stayed when the state was formed but a lot are there because they had to flee Palestine.

Israeli government are horrendous and the settlements are wrong. However this ignorant spread of misinformation to try and dismantle the state of Israel is very wrong too.

Palestine was never a country. Up until 1917 it was part of the Ottoman Empire. When that empire dissolved in WW1, the British took over administration of it in 1917 as "The British Mandate of Palestine".

It had always had a majority Arab/muslim population and a minority jewish one. The Zionist movement began in the 19th century based on the belief that it was the jews' "God given" homeland, and encouraged jews from elsewhere to go and settle there, gradually increasing the size of the jewish minority both up until 1917 and after, through the period of the mandate.

At the end of WW2 a lot of concentration camp survivors were resettled there. This is sometimes misleadingly described by Pro-Palestinian people in the west as a completely new thing - a whole bunch of jewish people just "suddenly" "invading" Palestine. In reality it was one further stage in the ongoing process of Zionist settlement.

The British had wanted for some time to withdraw from the mandate, and consulted with the leaders of both populations and various parties how to do that. They ended up with a partition plan to divide the mandate territory in two, one majority Arab/muslim (Palestine) and one majority jewish (Israel). The jews accepted this plan; the Palestinians didn't. (Actually I'm not sure that's quite true: it was not entirely clear who spoke for the Palesitnians and there is some evidence of broad agreement, but the neighbouring Arab countries were totally, implacably against).

The British went ahead and withdrew on this basis anyway in 1948. Israel declared its nationhood and the Arab League immediately declared war on it, vowing to wipe it out. Israel won that war. As part of the settlement, Jordan got the west bank and Egypt got the Gaza strip.

There were continual simmering tensions after that erupting into bloodshed on various scales. In 1967 Israel was attacked in the 6 day war, but again won, and in the settlement claimed authority over the west bank and Gaza strip. These are known as the "occupied territories". Israel sees them as a "buffer zone", necessary around Israel proper for national security, being surrounded as it is by enemies. Unfortunately there are people (the Palestinians) who live in them, and are treated as second class citizens.

There is a thread running through much of the Islamic world in the region of implacable opposition to any possibility of a jewish state existing these. This for example is (basically) the position of Hamas. Israel sees the Palestinians' support for Hamas as an indication that negotiation is practically impossible and they need to take a hard line. Western pro-Palestinians OTOH see Israel's terrible oppression of the Palestinians, racism and appalling attitude to human rights as justification for the Palestinians turning to desparate measures.

Who's right depends on who you listen to, and a whole bunch of ultimately very subjective questions.

It hasn't been Palestine since the dawn of time, and earliest records show the land was initially Judea before the Israelites were ethnically cleansed out of the land and into diaspora.

It's not taking land off the Palestinians, it's reclaiming their homeland.

When was Palestine their homeland?

And besides you’re the one who said that the Palestinians have been offered their own country repeatedly. This wasn’t me cherry picking. You said that you have answered my intellectual exercise but you didn’t really mention where this new country the Palestinians are supposed to have to.

Accusing me of using my friends and invalidating their experiences and their research also left a bad taste in my mouth by the way.

And @Ritascornershop in case you’re wondering why I even wording it that very way as I am not even trying to be goady, these were your very words:

Lastly, I find this cloak of “Jewish friends say” distasteful. . Sure Jewish opinion differs, but using your claim of ‘Jewish friends say’ leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Either you believe your ideas have credence or you don’t. Don’t use your claim of but some of my friends are Jews to shore up your claim.

When did I use my friends to shore up my beliefs? I said that my friends had years of research into this. Am I inclined to believe their years of research? Most definitely. Why wouldn’t I when they have facts, statistics and actual evidence to back what their saying? Do I deplore injustice? Absolutely.

Another thing, did I even write “my Jewish friends say” or is that you twisting my words again? Also, are you trying to diminish my friends’ experiences because I can assure being called a “self-hating Jew” isn’t a new thing flung at any Jewish person who has been teensy bit critical of the Israeli government’s actions.

This is what you said about me: It’s pretty obvious what I’m meaning about using Jewish friends to shore up your beliefs, I think you’re being deliberately obtuse.
Point out where I was the one “cherry picking”? I merely asked you to clarify as I was confused by what you meant. When did that ever mean “cherry picking”?

And @Ritascornershop I do think you’re picking and choosing and twisting what I’m writing which made me feel that you were being disingenuous. And now you’re saying that I’m being “deliberately obtuse”.

This is what I wrote:
If you look at it from the perspective of Just War Theorists, you’d still find that Israel has been unjust. But somehow the pro-Israel narrative is just focusing on rockets and Hamas only. There are faults on both sides but it’s clear which side’s is greater.

Somehow it’s ok to criticise one side’s faults but not the other. I find that very interesting indeed.

it has resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. What do you mean by this?

As you know, Israel is an ancient kingdom and I was referring to Jews having been in roughly that area (including Jerusalem) for thousands of years.

It’s pretty obvious what I’m meaning about using Jewish friends to shore up your beliefs, I think you’re being deliberately obtuse.

I answered your intellectual exercise about Israel encroaching on a potential future nation: I said I don’t see why they would.

I have answered some of your points, but you are cherry picking as well.

As for UN resolutions, feh. The UN has a very peculiar record regarding Israel. From Wikipedia: “ As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by the United Nations Human Rights Council. Since the creation of the Council in 2006, it has resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined.“ Do you honestly believe that Israel, the only Jewish state, has had more human rights problems than China? Than North Korea? Than Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, Iran, Eritrea, Afghanistan? Israel has Druze, Christians and Muslims serving in the armed forces and in the Knesset and the judiciary. They have equal rights for women and lgbtq people. But more resolutions against them than anyone else? No, I don’t put too much faith in UN resolutions.

Also I can’t help but feel that you’re being disingenuous now because you’re twisting my words.

@Ritascornershop I was confused as you meant Jews have been living in Israel for thousands of years as modern day Israel wasn’t created thousands of years ago.

Lastly, I find this cloak of “Jewish friends say” distasteful. . Sure Jewish opinion differs, but using your claim of ‘Jewish friends say’ leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Either you believe your ideas have credence or you don’t. Don’t use your claim of but some of my friends are Jews to shore up your claim.

What do you mean by this? Also, you’re picking and choosing what I’m writing but ignoring any points I’ve actually made. Only focusing on Hamas I see and nothing about the actions of the Israeli government. You don’t agree with the UN resolutions then?

For example this:

The actions and existence of Hamas cannot be conflated with the suffering of the Palestinian people. So you’re saying that Palestinians have been offered their own country? Where exactly would that be? I’m really curious. You don’t think that just as Israeli government’s encroachment on Palestinian partitions, there won’t be a need for expansion and this could potentially expand into this “new” country?

@ExitChasedByABee - not sure what you mean by am I talking about ancient Israel? I said Jews have maintained a continuous presence in Israel. From ancient times steadily through to now.

As for what the partition offered in ‘48 was, look it up. The maps are easily found online. And no, I can’t see a benefit to Israel invading a future state.

Doesn’t Hamas’ behaviour bother you? I feel you’re just waving it away. No elections in ages, murdering gay men, their leaders living it up on foreign aid money, the stated annihilation of Israeli Jews (& I cant see Hamas treating christians or Druze well either).

As for there being a direct route from injustice to radicalization, I disagree. I think it’s offensive to posit that some people can’t control themselves and have to bomb bus stations and pizza parlours. I don’t see First Nations in Canada bombing anyone.

Lastly, I find this cloak of “Jewish friends say” distasteful. . Sure Jewish opinion differs, but using your claim of ‘Jewish friends say’ leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Either you believe your ideas have credence or you don’t. Don’t use your claim of but some of my friends are Jews to shore up your claim.

The actions and existence of Hamas cannot be conflated with the suffering of the Palestinian people. So you’re saying that Palestinians have been offered their own country? Where exactly would that be? I’m really curious. You don’t think that just as Israeli government’s encroachment on Palestinian partitions, there won’t be a need for expansion and this could potentially expand into this “new” country?

I am very interested in this as well.

@Ritascornershop Are you talking about ancient Israel? And also the need for Jewish immigration into their very own homeland has been the main component of Zionism which as a construct was invented in the late 1800s.

Even before the birth of modern day Israel was created by UN, there were already plans for it take place many decades before this. You don’t have to look too far to find out when this actually happened. A cynic would argue that the Palestinian people never stood a chance. If a more powerful country just decides to administrative control of a weaker country, without even a democratic process, is that just?

And also with the creation of Israel by the UN, there too was a partition plan. Has Israel even stuck to this plan? Despite the fact there were partitions for Palestinians to remain, this has been encroached upon for years upon years. Again, do your research and how small their pockets of existence has become. Why else do you think there have been UN resolutions against Israel taking place numerous times?

Whenever you have massive injustice and a lack of political voice, it sometimes leads to radicalisation. It makes some people think there is no other option, this notion is not a unique one and you’ll find this a common occurrence when studying history. The doors need to be open for diplomacy and it has to be adhered to. You talk of Hamas, ignoring too their provocations (check points and assassinations have been forgotten about?), not to mention the most recent ones during the Muslim month of Ramadan which lead to an escalation of violence, one cannot exist without the other. You could even argue, for a war to be justified by Israel, this is even needed. Even when there were no rockets fired, did it prevent Israel from acting unjustly? Or is this somehow also Hamas’ fault?

The actions and existence of Hamas cannot be conflated with the suffering of the Palestinian people. So you’re saying that Palestinians have been offered their own country? Where exactly would that be? I’m really curious. You don’t think that just as Israeli government’s encroachment on Palestinian partitions, there won’t be a need for expansion and this could potentially expand into this “new” country?

If you look at it from the perspective of Just War Theorists, you’d still find that Israel has been unjust. But somehow the pro-Israel narrative is just focusing on rockets and Hamas only. There are faults on both sides but it’s clear which side’s is greater.

This isn’t just coming from me, this is coming from the years of research my Jewish friends have done. And I felt the need to add that they were Jewish because anything but being Jewish would been seen as a lack of understanding and bias. This is why they are called “self-hating Jews”.

There are younger Jews within Israel who also don’t agree with the government’s narrative, not to mention the legislative measures that been implemented for decades as well as new contentious legislation which was clearly used to divide society as well as disenfranchise Palestinians even more.

I think a lot of people outside of Israel seem to forget that Jews have maintained a continuous population in Israel for thousands of years. And yes, Ashkenazi, Sephardim, etc moved to Israel in more recent times, but the majority of modern Israeli Jews are at least partly of Mizrahi (middle eastern) origin. After the establishment of Israel in 1948 nearly a million Jews were expelled from Arab countries. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries Where were they to go?

The Palestinians have been offered their own country repeatedly but it is an all or nothing proposition in the minds of their leaders, which is not practical. Read the Hamas charter, it calls for the destruction of Israel (and I don’t think the Christian and Druze population would be keen on that).

You'd think Americans would be a little more careful bandying around the idea that oppressed people, subject to genocide and extermination, should just be able to 'reclaim' their own land. How does that work with First Nations and indigenous people in the US and Canada? They going to hand back the whole place? Of course not.

Indigenous people don't get to reclaim their homelands in most of the world, even though they've suffered horribly in those countries (and Australia and others).

But the real issue is trying to solve a land dispute with bombs and guns. Both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people have a 'claim'. Arguing whose claim is better is ridiculous. What needs to happen is understanding that everyone needs a safe home. Everyone.

Recent post, some informative views and links.

Idiot’s guide to the Palestine/Israel conflict anyone? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4244743-Idiot-s-guide-to-the-Palestine-Israel-conflict-anyone

Ugh, typos. If only there was an edit button.

Will they be only be satisfied once there are no green areas left?

One of my lovely Jewish friends was called a “self-hating Jew” by people in her own community just because she was vocal against Israel’s actions. She told me that not many people remember the likes of Rachel Corrie and pro-Israelis like to call diminish Rachel’s death saying she was an “extremist”

She said that you’ll often pro-Israelis saying the same talking points and she pointed out if anyone is open-minded enough will look into Hasbara. She said these are the usual talking points:

• Israeli gov. was acting in self-defense even when you point out the disproportionality of its actions.
• Israel is recognized by United Nations, but then get defensive when you point out UN resolutions against Israel
• Muslims and Christians have many countries, Jews need a place to call home too. Don’t forget the Holocaust.
• This land belongs to the Jews. It’s not simple just resettlement, they are just reclaiming their ancient birth right. This is also one of the reasons used to bulldoze and evict people from their homes, the government takes over that part of the land and then says the Palestinians are living there illegally so should be evicted or they have the right bulldoze illegal property.

I’m not saying the Holocaust wasn’t atrocious, but I don’t think it then excuses the need to take over another country for a place to belong and then claim you have a historic right to own said country. And the fact the Holocaust is used as a reason for Israel’s right for existence she said was unnerving and her discomfort with this made her a “self-hating Jew”

In fact there are many sects of Judaism, and there are many Orthodox Jews who actually believe Israel is a place that God will give after their perpetual wondering, but it won’t be in this life but the next.

One of my old lecturers, from almost a decade ago, is a modern Orthodox Jew. He loves Rabbi Arik Ascherman, who many a time stood in the way of bulldozers only to be dragged away and beaten privately, but he doesn’t agree with him fully because my lecturer actually believed Jews who moved to Israel and live in settlements aren’t “settlers” but rather “resettlers” who are returning to their homes. Apparently depending on the label that is used amongst Jews, it’s a code to see where you stand on Israel. He also believed that Israel has the right to remain, but asserted that he believes there should be a two part state. He also stated that apparently there are some Christians who believed “Jews are cursed as they killed Christ” and so he thinks it’s high time that Jews who have been persecuted, need a home to belong to. He was the one who mentioned that there are different types of Orthodox Jews, some are spiritual etc. And he also mentioned there are secular Jews who don’t even believe in God or as he used to write “G-d”

So you’ll find a range a views amongst the different types of Jews, some pro-Israel and full on believers of Zionist and some anti-Israel and some in the middle. It’s never simple. And whilst the horrors of what the Palestinian people shouldn’t be trivialized, the history and politics is very interesting.

Not every displaced people have been subjected to what the Jews were last century though. Surely that is key?

There are Jews that don't agree with Israel existing.

But regardless, I don't disagree with them being given land. I disagree with them creating settlements in land that legally does not belong to them, e.g. in the West Bank. Why aren't they happy with what they've been given?

@Owlina
Not every displaced people have been subjected to what the Jews were last century though. Surely that is key?

It's not taking land off the Palestinians, it's reclaiming their homeland.

Imagine if every displaced people started trying to claim back land from thousands of years ago. They got given most of the land. Why do they keep taking more?

has been recognized as a state since 1948.

The land was split. Gaza and the West Bank are not technically Israel, they were to be Palestinian. Under International Law, Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel. Unfortunately, Israel has taken over large parts of the West Bank, illegally, including most of the agricultural land. Palestinians have pushed further and further into the corners, I don't blame them for being angry.