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Conflict in the Middle East

I think a lot of people misunderstand this aspect of the situation re why civilians are staying in Gaza

166 replies

Jane3212 · 08/09/2026 17:33

I've seen quite a few posts on Mumsnet and elsewhere asking why Gazans with dependent children are staying there despite the danger, some speculating that it's due to Hamas brainwashing to stay no matter what danger and become martyrs.

But that completely ignores that the Rafah Crossing for various reasons has been closed from 2024 and is only partially open now. The huge amount of crowdfunding campaigns to get into Egypt suggest to me that a lot of Gazans DO want to leave while the fighting continues, and do want to protect their children. It's not their fault that this is extremely difficult.

OP posts:
Tiredtaxpayer · 23/09/2026 20:37

SingingShrews · 23/09/2026 20:28

If the West Bank is Israels land why are Palestinians in the West Bank not offered Israeli citizenship, the right to vote in Israeli elections, access to Israeli healthcare etc?

Israel has not formally annexed most of the West Bank (except for East Jerusalem), meaning Israeli sovereign law does not apply to the Palestinian population there.
Under the Oslo Accords, parts of the West Bank are administered by the Palestinian Authority, while overall security and Area C remain under Israeli military control. Residents hold Palestinian identification documents rather than Israeli citizenship.

Squeezingwildoranges · 23/09/2026 20:37

Tiredtaxpayer · 23/09/2026 20:24

There are some people that persist in wanting to re-write history.
They want the world to believe the 1967 war was a bellicose act by Israel.
Incorrect, it was an act of self-defense in the face of genocidal threats to vanquish the Jewish state, not to mention the maritime blockade of the Straits of Tiran, the abrupt withdrawal of UN peacekeeping forces, and the redeployment of Egyptian and Syrian troops.
All wars have consequences and this one was no exception. Unfortunately the aggressors have failed to take responsibility for the actions they instigated.

I know Israelis think they have the best army in the world; in a way they do with US tax payers money; but no one realistically believes they "defended themselves" against three battle ready armies in 6 days. It was a land grab just like what is going on in Lebanon right now.

SummerFeverVenice · 23/09/2026 20:40

Squeezingwildoranges · 23/09/2026 20:37

I know Israelis think they have the best army in the world; in a way they do with US tax payers money; but no one realistically believes they "defended themselves" against three battle ready armies in 6 days. It was a land grab just like what is going on in Lebanon right now.

Tiredtaxpayer also has said that the British started WWII so apparently the Nazis were just defending themselves! That’s the kind of historical knowledge we are dealing with here.

Tiredtaxpayer · 23/09/2026 20:44

Squeezingwildoranges · 23/09/2026 20:37

I know Israelis think they have the best army in the world; in a way they do with US tax payers money; but no one realistically believes they "defended themselves" against three battle ready armies in 6 days. It was a land grab just like what is going on in Lebanon right now.

Israel does not seek to control all of Lebanon, but it is establishing long-term military control over a security buffer zone in southern Lebanon.
Troops occupy a strip of land making up about 5% of Lebanon.
Most importantly analysts describe the strategy as degrading Hezbollah (Iranian backed terrorists that have been firing rockets into Israel) rather than regime change.
Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel and the "liberation" of Jerusalem and all Palestinian territories. It states that its confrontation with Israel should continue until the state is removed from existence.

Tiredtaxpayer · 23/09/2026 20:47

SummerFeverVenice · 23/09/2026 20:40

Tiredtaxpayer also has said that the British started WWII so apparently the Nazis were just defending themselves! That’s the kind of historical knowledge we are dealing with here.

No need to be sarcastic and derogatory.
I'm happy to debate with you but without the snide remarks.
If you will modify your post I am happy to respond to any question you might have.

Squeezingwildoranges · 23/09/2026 20:51

Tiredtaxpayer · 23/09/2026 20:44

Israel does not seek to control all of Lebanon, but it is establishing long-term military control over a security buffer zone in southern Lebanon.
Troops occupy a strip of land making up about 5% of Lebanon.
Most importantly analysts describe the strategy as degrading Hezbollah (Iranian backed terrorists that have been firing rockets into Israel) rather than regime change.
Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel and the "liberation" of Jerusalem and all Palestinian territories. It states that its confrontation with Israel should continue until the state is removed from existence.

I mean you'd think they could be a bit more original. That's exactly what they said about the West Bank and the Golan heights in 67. Apparently they now consider it as their land, no one else does but hey, if Israel says it's theirs, they're fairly confident they can get away with it.

Tiredtaxpayer · 23/09/2026 20:55

Squeezingwildoranges · 23/09/2026 20:51

I mean you'd think they could be a bit more original. That's exactly what they said about the West Bank and the Golan heights in 67. Apparently they now consider it as their land, no one else does but hey, if Israel says it's theirs, they're fairly confident they can get away with it.

I see you have chosen to be sarcastic.
It seems you don't want a rational debate, so I'm gone.

Squeezingwildoranges · 23/09/2026 21:02

Tiredtaxpayer · 23/09/2026 20:55

I see you have chosen to be sarcastic.
It seems you don't want a rational debate, so I'm gone.

Whether you like it or not, facts are facts. If you would like to dispute any facts I present I will happily defend them until proven wrong.

AmberTigerEyes · 24/09/2026 09:44

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:55

No need to get snippy.
Lets look at some facts.
The major reason for the Second World War was the Allies' failure to stop Hitler's aggression through their policy of appeasement. In 1935, Hitler reintroduced conscription. Then, on March 7, 1936, he remilitarised the Rhineland. Despite these actions violating the Treaty of Versailles, the Allies did nothing, hoping that giving Hitler what he wanted would prevent future aggression. However, this inaction had the opposite effect.
In March 1938, Germany annexed Austria.
The Sudetenland, a region of Czechoslovakia that contained mostly German speakers, was then annexed in the autumn of 1938, * followed by an invasion of the rest of the country in early 1939.
Don't forget Neville Chamberlain famously declared "peace for our time" on September 30, 1938,* after returning from signing the Munich Agreement with Adolf Hitler this was after Hitler had annexed Sudetenland.
Ultimately, the invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939, was the final straw for the Allies, with France and the United Kingdom (UK) declaring war on Germany days later.

I cannot believe what I have read in your posts this morning. You said that we (British) started WWII and in response to rational challenges of your fictional history you wrote this long Nazi apologia characterising Germany as defending victims against British & our allies not only starting WWII but being to blame for WWII in the first place.

Tiredtaxpayer · 25/09/2026 00:47

AmberTigerEyes · 24/09/2026 09:44

I cannot believe what I have read in your posts this morning. You said that we (British) started WWII and in response to rational challenges of your fictional history you wrote this long Nazi apologia characterising Germany as defending victims against British & our allies not only starting WWII but being to blame for WWII in the first place.

Well, save your outrage, because it's true. And while you're doing that read some history books - especially concerning the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact.
Adolf Hitler did not originally plan to attack or invade Britain; he initially hoped to reach a peace agreement or alliance with the British Empire.
Hitler originally admired the British Empire and viewed it as a fellow "Aryan" power.He wanted Germany to dominate continental Europe while Britain kept its overseas empire.
His main ideological goal was expanding eastward into the Soviet Union for Lebensraum (living space), not fighting a war against Britain.
After defeating France in June 1940, Hitler expected Britain—now isolated—to negotiate a peace treaty.
Winston Churchill and the British government refused to surrender or enter peace talks.
Realizing Britain would fight on, Hitler issued Directive No.16 on July 16, 1940, formally ordering preparations for an amphibious invasion code-named "Operation Sea Lion "
Hitler demanded total air and naval superiority over the English Channel before launching the invasion. But the Luftwaffe failed to defeat the Royal Air Force (RAF) during the Battle of Britain.
Without air supremacy or a viable amphibious strategy, Hitler postponed Operation Sea Lion indefinitely and diverted his focus toward invading the Soviet Union (Operation Barbarossa)

SoberannSerene · 25/09/2026 16:26

Squeezingwildoranges · 23/09/2026 21:02

Whether you like it or not, facts are facts. If you would like to dispute any facts I present I will happily defend them until proven wrong.

The thing is, most of what you say is opinion, not fact at all!
You just have a habit of presenting your opinions as facts.
eg “no one realistically believes they "defended themselves" against three battle ready armies in 6 days. It was a land grab just like what is going on in Lebanon right now.”

AmberTigerEyes · 25/09/2026 17:08

Tiredtaxpayer · 25/09/2026 00:47

Well, save your outrage, because it's true. And while you're doing that read some history books - especially concerning the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact.
Adolf Hitler did not originally plan to attack or invade Britain; he initially hoped to reach a peace agreement or alliance with the British Empire.
Hitler originally admired the British Empire and viewed it as a fellow "Aryan" power.He wanted Germany to dominate continental Europe while Britain kept its overseas empire.
His main ideological goal was expanding eastward into the Soviet Union for Lebensraum (living space), not fighting a war against Britain.
After defeating France in June 1940, Hitler expected Britain—now isolated—to negotiate a peace treaty.
Winston Churchill and the British government refused to surrender or enter peace talks.
Realizing Britain would fight on, Hitler issued Directive No.16 on July 16, 1940, formally ordering preparations for an amphibious invasion code-named "Operation Sea Lion "
Hitler demanded total air and naval superiority over the English Channel before launching the invasion. But the Luftwaffe failed to defeat the Royal Air Force (RAF) during the Battle of Britain.
Without air supremacy or a viable amphibious strategy, Hitler postponed Operation Sea Lion indefinitely and diverted his focus toward invading the Soviet Union (Operation Barbarossa)

Edited

Hitler’s main ideology was to expand eastwards, but he actually expanded north, south, east and west. You rely too much on the Nazi propaganda and not enough on their actions. Hitler started WWII that is historical fact.

Squeezingwildoranges · 25/09/2026 20:36

SoberannSerene · 25/09/2026 16:26

The thing is, most of what you say is opinion, not fact at all!
You just have a habit of presenting your opinions as facts.
eg “no one realistically believes they "defended themselves" against three battle ready armies in 6 days. It was a land grab just like what is going on in Lebanon right now.”

Interesting. I will stand by that comment because I said realistically. If you can find me any military analyst/historian who would say that an army could defend itself against three battle ready armies and defeat them in 6 days, I will literally eat my shoe. Note battle ready which is the crux of the argument.

Deafnotdumb · Yesterday 01:22

Moving back to modern day concerns, the Gaza population is stuck between rubble and rough politics. Nothing is allowed in to help them rebuild. They can't get out. The Arab nations will not offer money without a lasting peace process. Neither Israel nor Hanas are that interested in making it happen - Hamas will not disarm or step down and a desperate populace is one who can be recruited or terrorised into obeying. Netanyahu has his own calculus with the Knesset. America could help (in theory), but in practice Trump is more preoccupied with Iran and extracting bribes.

My guess is that there will be a slow puncture of Palestinians leaving however they can, for housing, jobs and schools alongside greater radicalisation of the ones left behind.

Israel won't absorb them nor govern them . It would be suicide to allow in millions of people who celebrated Oct 7th massacre and rape.

StarRibbons · Yesterday 01:30

Remember what happened to Lebanon when they took thousands of Palestinian 'refugees'

Tiredtaxpayer · Yesterday 01:36

StarRibbons · Yesterday 01:30

Remember what happened to Lebanon when they took thousands of Palestinian 'refugees'

And for those that aren't aware, here's a copy of my post on this topic from another thread -
After being expelled from Jordan, Yasser Arafat and the PLO established a new headquarters in Lebanon, creating a powerful enclave known as "Fatahland" in the south. Their presence upset Lebanon's fragile multi-religious demographic balance and eroded the central government's authority.
.In 1975, long-standing tensions in Lebanon erupted into a complex civil war. The PLO allied with the Lebanese National Movement (a coalition of leftist and Muslim factions) to fight against the Lebanese Christian militias (the Lebanese Front) and, at various points, clashed directly with the Lebanese Army and invading Syrian forces. The PLO maintained its military dominance in portions of Lebanon until the 1982 Israeli invasion forced them to evacuate to Tunisia.

The Lebanon - the only Christian Country in the Middle East was effectively wrecked.

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