UEFA have finally taken a stand

OK, thank you.

I thought the latest stats showed most were fighting aged men?

If you want to believe Israel is deliberately carrying out an act of complete self sabotage and self harm to it’s own country and citizens, as well as Jewish people globally (which is a total contradiction to its history), you could say it is deliberately targeting women or children and letting the whole world know.

Or you could see a much more horrific and sinister pattern, which actually aligns with Hamas’s history, proven tactics and what they admit themselves, and is that these fighting age men are surrounding themselves with women and children and forcibly putting them in the firing line/bombing areas, as human shields, and probably killing them themselves either accidentally or deliberately, which is totally unpalatable to those who see them as a legitimate resistance force fighting an oppressive regime.

I dont want to derail this thread - please see this thread- happy to discuss further there:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5376204-hamas-underestimate-deaths-of-palestinians?reply=145796643

Where do the stats come from, before they are analysed?

Please look at independent studies - neither by Hamas not stats from Israel, which show that most people killed are children and women. If you have not already seen them on this board, I can direct you to the studies.

I agree Hamas will use anything for propaganda.

I think it affirms the Jewish right to self determination in the home of their ancestors.

Small but important difference, your use of 'creating' could imply that its a recent creation- rather than where they originally came from thousands of years ago.

Thank you for your reasoned posts. Breath of fresh air.

I agree, we will never know how many of them were civilians. Doesn't the Hamas Ministry of phantom numbers like to include its operatives in its reported fatalities?

I really think Israel were damned if they did, damned if they didn’t on that.

They know a lot of Western journalists hold anti-Israel bias. They also know Hamas will use them for their own sick propaganda purposes. They also know these terrorists are not a normal army who have any regard to civilian life or act within normal rules of engagement. They could kill journalists themselves and blame Israel as well of course.

I think a big concern was journalists being embedded with the IDF and giving away locations or military information which shows the level of trust Israel has with Western media, quite validly, as can be seen from the reporting so far.

They could have done- but this message was prompted by the anger related to the killing of a footballer.

Particular people become a face for tragedies, like the doctors’ family that were killed in Gaza. It’s not that any life is more valuable than others, but thinking about individuals makes the killing more relatable.

We will never know enough about the over 60,000 Gazans killed. It would be impossible.

And there you are. You think Israel should not exist?

Just to add for those who want to jump on and accuse me of wanting that to happen,

Obviously I do not and I don’t think Israel does either.

I was using that as an example of the totally illogical accusations against Israel which make no sense if you consider them rationally.

There was a radio report this morning that made me question Hamas propaganda.

Maybe journalists now entering will give more reliable information.

@Gloriia
Just as much there was no justification for 7/10, despite any grievances of Palestinians, nor does the fact that Hamas has hostages have anything to do with the killing of people collecting aid.

'The thing is Gloria that is a message by a football association has been prompted by the death of a talented footballer.'

People have been killed on both sides. A 'talented footballer' is no more worthy of banners than the next person.

'End the conflict in gaza' shouldve been their message, or at the very least include 'free the hostages' too.

Why would they do that? To make themselves more of a pariah State? To lose allies, be further sanctioned, be prosecuted for war crimes, to tank their own economy, put their own citizens and Jewish people at more risk from antisemitism/Israel hate?

Jewish people in general are pretty intelligent and successful. They know Palestinians have access to cameras, internet, social media and media outlets and will tell everyone what they’re allegedly doing with evidence if they have it.

They could be more successful in carrying out a genocide by killing more Palestinians in one go instead of dragging it out for two years and shooting them here and there and also risking soldiers being on the ground. Would have saved $ billions as well in the cost of the war as well as thousands of soldiers lives just from not bothering to evacuate civilians when they bombed the hell out of Gaza.

They are already accused of genocide, they have nothing to lose.

Logic then dictates that is not Israel’s intention surely?

The thing is Gloria that is a message by a football association has been prompted by the death of a talented footballer.

If it was a general message, not in this context, about was happening in the Middle Eas, then I agree it should include need to release hostages and for Hamas to disband.

I actually dont think the messaging from UEFA is specific enough- I think it should reference aid to the Palestinians to make it more targeted to the situation in which this footballer died.

Have the Israel Football association said anything about suffering of Palestinians? Or, please do share, if you are aware of any major Israeli cultural or sporting organisation, that is also highlighting the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Why is it too late? Qatar chose the Spurs game to deliver its message. Free Palestine would have been a bit too obvious though.

Do you really not see why your earlier post got the reaction it did?

Or describing hostages as being gold, in worth. I doubt they feel that. I doubt the poor bugger digging his own grave feels like gold, right now.

Bingo!

Too little too late UEFA.

Remember how Nazi Germany used the Berlin Olympics to show their determination.

People supported that genocide too.

Similar to the ones supporting this one.