Please do all you can to object to the genocide of Palestinians (Thread 2)

According to this recent poll 50% of democrat voters believe that Israel is committing a genocide against the Palestinians. 20% believe they are not and 30% are unsure.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-biden-voters-israel-genocide-palestinians-gaza-poll-2024-1

@sunick , feel free to report the thread if it offends you. There's a report thread function and individual report post options too. You can also hide it so it doesn't appear for you.

@Sachaski I hope your child's best friend is safe and can come home soon. I know all too well how hard it can be when you have people you care about in a war zone.

This is a deliberate tactic to highjack a real genocide, which was committed against the Jewish people, and to deny responsibility for a war started by Hamas.

@sunick the term genocide is one which has been used quite a few times in history and in modern times. Expressing concerns about one suspected genocide does not invalidate that other genocides have occurred.

The fact that it's a second thread just makes it twice as disgusting.
So my objections are now doubled.

I object to a thread claiming genocide when it isn't happening and is a disgusting attempt to highjack the real genocide Jewish people were subject to.

@Sachaski whether or not a building is on top of a 'legitimate' target (in ' ' as people's definitions of legitimate will vary), that does not negate the obligation to minimise civilian casualties. There are lots of options between "do nothing" and "bulldoze and bomb a hospital and shoot anyone who tries to leave".

Being in a tunnel isn't the protection it used to be. It makes things a bit more complex, but not, in my opinion, to a level that justifies what we're seeing happening.

They are not perfect, and a large part of their army now are reservists who are very young (my child's best friend is there now and he is 19yo) ...I think have panicked at some times. The IDF have put their hands up at mistakes and they will be investigated.

Re the hospitals, I think it is now proven that Hamas were using them as military bases, some with the ability to fire rockets.

Military intelligence...yes it's normally good and you can take out people precisely....but not if they're hiding in a tunnel?!

I think the hope was that this could be a thread objecting to the genocide (or alleged/suspected genocide if you prefer). Perhaps people who are in favour of it or aren't that bothered might find it helpful to start their own threads to talk about not objecting to it.

It is entirely possible for 2 horrible things to have happened or be happening.

People are murdered in horrific ways in war, terror and torture. It isn't a competition where only one group can be afforded sympathy.

What is happening in Gaza, from the information available to me, looks to be on a different scale than pretty much anywhere else I've worked or my colleagues worked. Civilian casualties in wars are not new, but what is quite new (and to some pretty experienced people) is the scale, the gratuitousness of it, the lack of meaningful steps to reduce casualties (in accordance with obligations).

There are many ways in which a technologically well-equipped, well-staffed military force, backed up by an experienced intelligence agency, can achieve military objectives while effectively minimising civilian casualties. There are no signs of these being used as the norm in Gaza.

There are responsibilities under international humanitarian law to provide aid. Aid remains actively blocked from entering and then being distributed in Gaza. What is getting in is woefully insufficient to meet any population needs.

There are certain things that a power is meant to or expected to do when dealing with civilians or people attempting to surrender. Those do not include just shooting them. Instead, there should be protocols for securing a situation, confirming identities and security, etc. When civilian casualties occur or are likely to occur, there is an expectation that someone will have considered how to get these figures as low as possible. That doesn't include getting a sniper to shoot elderly women. The distribution of casualties across males, females and children shows a distribution which is closer to the general population demographics than would be expected if a force were targeting 'probable' combatants (in that case, you'd expect to see higher ratios of adult or late teen males). That suggests that there aren't nearly enough efforts being made to minimise civilian casualties.

There are some places that military forces are really not meant to bomb/flatten/shoot up. Hospitals, for example.

There is also evidence of rapid destruction of buildings of cultural importance, which is relevant as it is the erasure of a people's culture, history and identity.

If a military force is engaging in or is suspected to be engaging in those actions, some of which are violations of humanitarian law, then there are grounds to be concerned about potential genocide, war crimes, etc.

When you say children will need support, that makes me think you've never seen a severely injured child who's seen their family killed in front of their eyes. Those children need far more than a bit of support. Their lives have been destroyed. I've seen too many children in that situation.

They are trying their best to protect civilian lives, have you seen the air drops, phonecalls etc. ? it is hard when their enemy wants to maximise civilian ( their own civilians) deaths for their own benefit

Well of course it's horrific, but Israel is not at fault here....they are fighting to keep their people safe ( remember there is only 1 Jewish country in the world) Hamas's aim is to kill all Jews ( and Christians, gays, anyone not islamic fundamentalist basically) so Israel can't have this threat on their borders anymore, what would you have them do?

I dunno about you - personally, I imagine "being crushed to death under a collapsed building" to be quite "horrific" - and "actually surviving for long enough to die of thirst" as even more "horrific". To slowly and agonisingly die of untreated illness or injury on the grounds of a totally collapsed medical system? Pretty "horrific". Dying of infection after an amputation without anaestesia? Pretty fucking "horrific" in my book! Lucky are the ones who are just killed outright and on the spot!

On a side note: I was speaking with a friend from Switzerland the other day - and she vigorously "but Hamas-ed" me. At which point, I opted to point out that William Tell, the Swiss mythical founding hero - basically sort of "the King Arthur of Switzerland" - would, in modern terms, be classed a terrorist! "Bloke with personal experience of injustice and humiliation, and the personal targetting of himself and his family" sounds very "Palestinian experience" to me. Anyway, as per the legend, Tell ends up assassinating a Habsburg bailiff - hoping, among other things, to inspire a large scale, violent popular uprising. And, for that matter, another mythical Swiss folk hero, Arnold von Winkelried, committed what arguably amounts to the medieval version of a suicide attack against enemy forces. My friend was pretty mind-blown at the idea. And I now feel vindicated for those several days I went down a "history of Switzerland" rabbit hole during COVID - because I was feeling bored out of my mind!

They are not being murdered in "horrific ways"...that is how Israelis were slaughtered on Oct 7th.

They are very unfortunate casualties of war that their own government brought on them intentionally

And yes the children will need support post war..alot of the older children will need to be de-radicilised as well...it's just a horrible situation all round.

What about the West Bank, what about Oct 7th. Bore off with this narrative. It does not wash. Israel has been doing this slowly for decades. They're just using Oct 7th as an excuse to ramp up their efforts.