Please do all you can to object to the genocide of Palestinians (Thread 2)

Of course.

I would not necessarily call it "downgrading" as much as "erasing".

The whole thing is a long-standing pro-Israel trope that, in essence, states "there are no Palestinians - just generic "Arabs" - and, as such, Palestinians are no nation and hence have no claim to a nation-state" (to summarise crudely).

The whole thing is, of course, quite ridiculous on several different fronts:

1. The notion of a "nation", the idealisation of the "nation-state" and everything that this implies are, largely, an invention of the 19th century that subsequently gained in popularity. The Zionist movement itself is a product of this questionable trend - never had anyone thought of "Jews as a nation" before being a nation was suddenly fashionable as of about the period of romanticism - nor, for that matter of the French or of Germans!
2. There is ample evidence for the emergence of a distinct Palestinian identity from, at the very least, the very early 20th century onwards - in line with (see above) the whole "nation" idea gaining traction everywhere!
3. Technically, you do not need to be a "nation" in order to feel a deep connection to your land, your community, your customs, your language and culture! Your neighbours! Plenty of people have been upset about being driven into exile before the concepts of nations and nation states even existed!

Gosh, so much dehumanising and hateful language about Palestinian people on this thread, which is about objecting to their genocide.

I don't understand why you're here?

People can apply for visas to leave, often linked with studying or employment.

I'm not going to comment on the specifics of an individual family's circumstances, out of respect.

In general terms, though, people with family resident in Gaza can apply to visit for short periods. That's very different from being allowed to move back permanently.

People can try to move back permanently but there's no automatic right. If they leave, they may never get to go back.

People such as doctors may get visas for short or medium term work, usually linked with a specific aid programme or healthcare project. They then have to leave again. Some people may be part of projects that involve staying for 6 months at a time.

You either care about murder or you don't. You can't say repeatedly how horrified you are that 1200 Jewish people were murdered on 7 October but not be equally horrified that nearly 30,000 Palestinians have been killed since.

You either care about innocent people being murdered or you don't.

Why do you keep putting quotation marks around Palestinians?

If Palestinians were stopped from leaving why are there so many of them in the West?
And how did Humza Yousef's in laws manage to return to Gaza for a holiday if they're not allowed to go back there?
Or to return to carry out operations as a number of doctors do ?

Have you seen what's happening in Gaza or the occupied West Bank recently?

Because it's kind of not ok.

Hmm,
Since I made the suggestion about people moving out of harm's way I have discovered that some Palestinians are, in fact "Stateless" which raises a whole shed-load of problems when it comes to travel.

It seems many Palestinians obtained naturalisation and citizenship in the countries in which they settled outside the Middle East and North Africa.

However, this is not the case for Palestinians in the Arab world. The Arab States did not want to undermine the Palestinian’s refugee status for political reasons and thus would not normally give them citizenship. However, Palestinians were given the same rights to work as nationals of a particular Arab State in which they resided and the right to live and return to that State, although in the case of Egypt a re-entry visa to do so was required.

I really don't get this at all.

When the Home Office revoked Shamina Begum's British Citizenship people all over the world were throwing up their hands in horror and telling us (GB) that we had no right to make her "Stateless".
Yet here we have a whole group of people who seem to be classed as "permanent refugees".

My brain hurts.🤔

What does 'indirectly' mean?

I wasn't talking about convoys, I was talking about people on foot/bikes or in cars.

That's rather simplistic, when it's Israel that's under threat of mass destruction.

Well said

Maybe instead of responding to the terror attack by mass destruction, death and suffering, the people of Israel could have simply claimed asylum in another country.
Now, do you see how cruel and ignorant it is to suggest the people of Gaza are forced to leave.

Why don’t the people of Israel find a new home in another country? Probably because they don’t want to, and they shouldn’t have to. The same as many people in Gaza.

Israel indirectly controls the Rafah Crossing and Israeli fighter jets bombed the Rafah crossing while imposing stringent conditions on Egypt regarding the entry of humanitarian convoys.

Israel doesn't control the Rafah Crossing, so they could leave via Egypt.

Why is that such an outrageous suggestion.?
People arriving in the UK to claim asylum status (75% of them are successful) are fleeing persecution by their own government or civil war; Palestinians by the Israeli government who also stop them from leaving. If they did manage to leave their land, they are not allowed to return, contrary to international laws.
That is why it is outrageous.

Lots of people choose to move and travel. Most prefer to to stay in their homeland and don’t want to be forced out (as is happening in Gaza).

"Seriously, your solution to a group of people experiencing persecution and oppression in their own homes is "why don't they move"?"

Why is that such an outrageous suggestion.?

People arrive here on our shores most weeks claiming to be suffering persecution and oppression. Are you saying they shouldn't be moving to escape that?

I worked with a guy who's father lived in Gaza when it was controlled by Egypt. He took advantage of the bursaries/grants made available to Gazans by Nasser's government and went to study Medicine at a University in Cairo. He eventually moved to UK and worked in a GP practice.

Are you saying that Palestinians have no agency?

Actually, a lot of people I knew in Gaza were not subject to any form of conditioning.

And UNRWA is not some sinister anti-semitic organisation. It's an aid organisation. Allegations have been made about some employees - it's entirely right that those allegations are investigated and action taken if they are demonstrated to be correct, both in terms of consequences for individuals and wider strategic changes to prevent recurrence. However, we should not rush to pre-emptively call for the dismantling of one of the only organisations working in an area of humanitarian crisis. Thousands of people depend on UNRWA for survival.

When you talk about UNRWA employees and other people in Gaza in such a sweeping manner, please try to remember that some of us did know and care about people in Gaza as people. People that we knew, liked, worked with. And that you are tarring our dead loved ones with an unjustly applied label of anti-semitism.