Placards from marches in London (and graffitti) Part 2 **Title editedby MNHQ**

Thanks a lot

(Rolling eyes)

No need to take it personally Truly 😂

'They ask him to take it down. Not because it is a racist hate crime, but because of the optics: “it looks bad for us”.'

https://twitter.com/hearnimator/status/1733855181358379426

Thanks a lot

(Rolling eyes)

I guess the Israelis are essentially going after regime change with the current military operation.
Unfortunately Gaza is a small land area containing a large number of people with Hamas phyically embedded in and below the infrastructure. So the results of the operationi are obviously horrific.

So what happens if there is indeed a ceasefire now, at this point? With Hamas still in control, it will just be rinse and repeat of attack and retaliation in an ongoing, horrific cycle

Whats interesting is that you describe both the loss of life in Gaza and in the Hamas attacks as horrific yet a lot of people on this board (not necessarily you) would expect people shrug off the former and be dismayed only by the latter.

Where this situation is difficult is that I don't think any lasting peace, or anything beyond a temporary ceasefire, is achievable while Hamas is in control of Gaza.

I guess the Israelis are essentially going after regime change with the current military operation.
Unfortunately Gaza is a small land area containing a large number of people with Hamas phyically embedded in and below the infrastructure. So the results of the operationi are obviously horrific.

So what happens if there is indeed a ceasefire now, at this point? With Hamas still in control, it will just be rinse and repeat of attack and retaliation in an ongoing, horrific cycle. Not that I think the Israelis have any plans to ceasefire now, I've been following the actual operation to some extent and they seem to have taken most of Gaza now and be closing in on the remaining Hamas commanders, at least those in Gaza.

However as people have, rightly, pointed out, you can't kill an idea, and the senior leaders remain safe outwith the country.

Not that any of the above is critisism of any of you who are distressed or uncomfortable at the conflict, or feel that there must be a better way. I think one would need to be a psychopath not to be.

I've included a clip of Bernie Sanders saying what I've said (much more concisely!) so it's not just a right-wing viewpoint.

My other worry is potentially a legacy of both global hostility to Israel and much greater levels of anti-Semitism within society longer-term. I think it will be less fraught once the conflict is over and it is no longer in the news cycle, but the baseline might remain a lot higher. And I am not sure how that gets addressed. Tbh I do think that the same people that hate Israel will hate them even if they don't fire a single further shot.

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1733885042458562955

But those calling for a ceasefire - what are they actually saying? They're saying "Israel, stop your retaliation". None of them seem to be urging Hamas to lay down weapons, surrender or even release the hostages

i guess the issue is that the current conflict (Israel’s retaliation as you put it) is killing Palestinian civilians in quite large numbers. That is the main reason people are so keen for it to stop. That said I don’t think anyone envisions a ceasefire where Hamas continues to fight. As a pp said that is not really a ceasefire.

What do you think Isreal with do next then, if that happens? @stomachameleon Is there a plan in place?

@Jupitersstorm that's a good idea.

@AngrySheep Hamas only need to release the hostages (or their bodies) and stop firing rockets from public areas to show willing.

It is a very one sided debate.

I think the meaning of a ceasefire is that is stops on both sides, surely that is the only way to interpret the word?

This little genius in Brighton didn't know that Israeli Arabs exist. You can see it not computing and Denial Mode kicks in :

https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1733791033253642737

This is my confusion with the calls for ceasefire as well. It's aimed exclusively at Israel. Throughout this, Hamas have been returning fire, and have been holding onto hostages.
Reading various of the threads in this section, one would be forgiven for thinking that Israel had attacked a small territory of only unarmed civilians, for no reason whatsoever beyond bloodlust.

But those calling for a ceasefire - what are they actually saying? They're saying "Israel, stop your retaliation". None of them seem to be urging Hamas to lay down weapons, surrender or even release the hostages. That's what needs to be called for if you actually want peace in the region. I honestly thought we all would've been able to agree that if Hamas surrender, the war ends. But it seems we can't. People would rather put all the blame on Israel.

@XRAYTHIS the irony of posting on here about debate being shut down on a ceasefire and negative feeling about the Israeli government on a thread addressing the negative reactions on the streets in London and calling for our demise both here and in Israel.

The killing of all Jewish people.....

Am going to stick to the thread.

This was in the UK where 2 school girls badly beat a Jewish woman and people walk on by. They look proud of what they have done. The UK is becoming a place where some people it's OK to say, chant, sing, wave placards calling for killing of Jewish people. Its very sad.

There are seem to be quite a few posters who accuse anyone who even wants a ceasefire, as not caring about what Hamas have done, or even being pro-Hamas or antisemitic. Not either of you obviously, as you have just explained.

I think it’s possible to be appalled by both things at once, and to separate the ordinary Palestinian people from the actions of Hamas, and the ordinary Israelis from the actions of the Israeli government (and the IDF, who seem to be their army)

I can understand that it is a hugely emotive subject and that there is a long and complicated history and that people are defensive and scared, and ready to blame others.

I have seen social media posters who have called for a ceasefire , who have then been absolutely destroyed in the comments, had all sorts of abuse thrown their way and and accused of being antisemitic.

There seem to be groups, online anyway, who shout the loudest and want to shut anyone down who questions the Israeli government’s actions and behaviours (both now and historically) & the aim seems to be to silence anyone who ask questions or dares to disagree.

@Trulywonderful & @etmoiandme , thank you both for taking the time to explain.

Most people that are anti Zionist normally fall into two categories, they don't actually know what a Zionist is other than social media rubbish or they are antisemitic

This 100%. And I would even include some Jews in that.

You said it way better than me!

A group seen at the protests

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12845685/Government-ban-Islamic-extremist-group-Hizb-ut-Tahrir-jihad-anti-Israel-rally.html

Sure Jup will answer your question in her own way etc as that post was theirs

I can't answer for her and she will have her own thoughts or opinions etc that may differ from mine.

My opinion is this:

*It isn't antisemitism to criticize the Israeli government so long as you don't use Jewish related words or phrases or tropes. So no nazis, holocaust, etc

*If you ask for the dismantling of a state containing 9 million Jewish & Arab people that is effectively asking for ethnic cleansing or genocide. Which is exactly the same as some say Israel is doing. Most those citizens especially the middle eastern Jews have already experienced this in their own states. So it can be argued this could be antisemitism

*The use of the word Zionist if used to replace the word Jew in old revised nazi propaganda as we have seen in older protesters is antisemitism

The use of the word Zionist is most the time used wrong anyway. Zionism is part of the daily prayer religious Jews say every day and has been for hundreds of years.. The belief to live somewhere safe and be free to just be Jewish. There is a Zionist movement that is more political and that is what most protesters are talking about. So they should say political Zionism or just the Israeli government. However some like to use the word Zionist like it is an insult. Whereas it really isn't because around 84% of the world's Jews are Zionist. They all vary in opinion from being anti Israeli government to being very pro Israel government plus everything inbetween. Most people that are anti Zionist normally fall into two categories, they don't actually know what a Zionist is other than social media rubbish or they are antisemitic

Also everyone thinks that modern/political Zionism was a European endeavor, but the OGs of this Zionism are Yemeni Jews who made the dangerous track in 1868, 30 yrs before the first world Zionist congress. They built roads, cities, fought in WWIII, and had a massive impact on Jewish life in Israel.

That is a genuine question - as I don’t understand why criticism of Israel is automatically antisemitic.

therefore, why is criticism of Israel’s government automatically antisemitism?

@AngrySheep It's not. Criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism. But it's convenient for a lot of non-Jews to tell us we're crying antisemitism at the mere criticism of the Israeli govt when we are quite simply not doing this - while I don't doubt you could find a few that will say it is, for the most part Jews do not think or say this. This has been explained on here over and over though. It's exhausting to repeatedly have those words put in our mouths for us.

And yes a majority of Jewish people actually are Zionists, at some level, although it has different meanings for different Jews. And also yes, a lot of Jewish people don't support the bombings. I don't. Nor do I support occupation and expansion in the WB.

Adding to this, not all Jewish people are Zionists are they?

Sorry @Trulywonderful , it’s not appearing in that post.

This is the one from the OP