“I killed 10 Jews with my own hands. I’m using the dead Jewish woman’s phone to call you now.”

These people have family and friends still held hostage. What do you think they're going to say? Many are also from the kibbutzes, with a similar worldview to those attending a psychedelic dance peace festival within kilometers of a security fence. I've read several accounts from kibbutz-dwellers, who lived behind security gates, with armed patrols, a few miles from a border fence with Gaza, and with safe rooms in their houses, who describe how safe they always felt. People will often hold on to their belief systems in the face of any reality and any consequences.

I never said that or that she should be grateful. Of course its horrific being held hostage. I was just saying what the lady said and said what a contrast between the two.

Yes, the terrorists really are kind. Give them a round of fucking applause.

How lovely of the people who kidnapped her and murdered people in front of her and held her hostage for two weeks and still have her husband and a lot of other people including children. How grateful she should be that they didn't hurt her as much as they could have.

I did put how kind they were when they reached the place in Gaza.

Yes I did, i am talking about he people who looked after her when she got there. She said she was treated very well, got medicine and checks by doctors.

FFS.

Did you read what she actually said? About how it was hell and they hit her with sticks?

Clearly Hamas propaganda is working.

@SomeCatFromJapan Sounds like an interesting read. So many young men were terribly traumatised in WWI and II also.

I feel like it’s impossible to join the discussion regarding what happened without eventually being labelled as anti-Semitic or Islamophobic, depending on which way the discussion is going. A week ago on this thread (https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4919502-what-is-currently-happening-in-the-west-bank-rest-of-palestine?reply=130059891) I was accused of not seeing Palestinians as human because I spoke in support of Israeli citizens, now today I am being called anti-Semitic because I speak in support of Palestinian citizens. The reality is it’s possible to support innocent people on both sides and/ or to condemn people on both sides. It’s possible not to take a hard-line or to radically support either side, it’s possible to recognise that historically there has been a lot of wrong-doing on both sides and to mostly just feel sorry for the individuals caught up on both sides without having to hate either.

@StarbucksSmarterSister I do follow a couple of Palestinian accounts on X, as well as an Emirati who are heavily critical of Hamas and supportive of Israel's right to exist.

What really saddens me is there was literally NOT A SINGLE Pro-Palestinian protest against Hamas anywhere in the world.

100%.

They would say that they're Abrahamic religions, not that they're part of the Abrahamic religion, because there's no such thing as the latter.

Although I can't imagine what kind of person can face-to-face kill a child at all but especially in the way that Hamas has been killing people. And I firmly believe that if those who bombed were not able to distance themselves from what they do then we' d have less wars.

This made me think of the book "On Killing" which did a study on soldier's firing rates in the second world war, when most of the men were obviously conscripts. It's somewhat disputed but he suggested that there was a good percentage of men who deliberately shot to miss.

@ChickenNugget6 I suppose you say the same for the people shouting 'jihad'. It means what they want it too?

What an ignorant thing to say....

But @ChickenNugget6 you can't just change the meaning of a phrase because you don't agree with it. You sound like my 7 year old when he was trying to convince me the other day that he meant "my brother is an idiot" as a compliment. Just because that's what he wants it to mean doesn't mean that's what it actually means

It means from the Mediterranean to the River Jordan they will be rid of Jews. All the space in between.

Well I didn't say it was "more moral". I said I'd rather die in a bombing raid. And I would if the alternative was the things Hamas did.

Although I can't imagine what kind of person can face-to-face kill a child at all but especially in the way that Hamas has been killing people. And I firmly believe that if those who bombed were not able to distance themselves from what they do then we' d have less wars.

It means what the people who chant it at the protests say it means.

I've said it plenty of times at protests and I mean that all the Palestinians should be free from the occupation and have their homes given back.

@ChickenNugget6 "from river to the sea Palestine will be free" means no Israel and all of the land being Palestine.

@MolkosTeenageAngst I honestly don't know what he answer is - as far as I understand Gaza is pretty much Hamas now, Hamas controls everything there and indoctrinates everyone to their way of thinking. They also control where all the aid goes, and I know, for any Gazan, joining Hamas is a step up social ladder and a way to have a better life. How do you untangle this? Gazans are hostages of Hamas, and they have one of a hell of Stockholm syndrome.

What really saddens me is there was literally NOT A SINGLE Pro-Palestinian protest against Hamas anywhere in the world. Which makes me think they all agree with what Hamas stands for.

*MolkosTeenageAngst · Today 16:14

I haven’t forgotten the Israeli attacks, but *......

And there we have the “But”

Having sympathy for victims and then following that statement with a But... or However... or What about and trying to find a reason to blame the victims is not having sympathy it is victim blaming

MolkosTeenageAngst when you read of a woman who has been raped is your thinking that they must have deserved it because the victim was wearing a short skirt or was a bit tipsy or shouldn’t have been walking down an unlit alley by herself so what did they expect. Because that is the type of thing you are doing when you say. But or However etc and try to justify the reasons why Hamas raped women and children

truthfully they have been completely eclipsed by the Israeli retaliation. Over four times more Palestinians have now been killed than the Israelis murdered by Hamas in revenge. Hamas killing innocent people was heinous and unforgivable, but the actual attack and killing is over

Is it? The killing by the way isn’t over. The hostages are still facing death

Israel are currently killing innocent people in Gaza, there are over 1 million people displaced in Gaza, the people are currently without enough food or water, hospitals are about to run out of electricity which will lead to the deaths of even more critically ill people reliant on mechanical interventions, including over 100 premature babies in incubators

The worst part of the attack on Israel is over, at least physically the attack on Gaza is ongoing. Obviously the worlds focus is going to be on the current attacks and the fact that if nothing is done more babies and children will be killed this evening tonight, tomorrow, over the weekend. To me it doesn’t matter if the baby killed is Israeli or Palestinian, if they are killed in a terrorise attack or in a bombing, either way that is an innocent child who has lost their life for nothing. The loss of each Palestinian life is no better or worse than the loss of each Israeli life, the difference is that the loss of Palestinian life is happening right now and will continue unless the world speaks out. It is too late to save the Israeli children who died

Its the way you dismiss the fact that shooting babies and children in the head is something that can’t be changed. They are dead so let’s forget them and move on.
What about the Israeli children who are still being held hostage who are going to suffer the same fate as their brothers and sisters

It is too late to save the Palestinian children who have died, but it is not too late to speak out and condemn Israel for the babies and children they plan to kill over the next 24 hours

Why would Israel need condemning when it was Hamas that started this.

There needs to be a ceasefire because the current revenge attacks are not going to bring the dead back, they are not going to stop Hamas, they are not going to end the conflict, all they are doing is killing more and more innocent people

Are these people that innocent? After the attack on Israel these are the people who were celebrating the deaths of Israeli children in the streets, waving the Palestinian flag
If they don’t support the terrorists who started this shouldn’t there have been statements about how awful the attack was and it wasn’t in their name. Seems like the only reason they are now putting themselves as the victim is because Israel retaliated and Hamas now can’t protect them

I will never believe that Palestine don’t support Hamas after witnessing the celebrations and flag waving in the UK after these despicable attacks

Maybe the reply to this is to say sorry for everyone who has died because Israel retaliated. But ....what did they expect.

You can’t go entering a foreign country raping, murdering and kidnapping their men women and children and then expect there to be no consequences

If Hamas hadn’t attacked, do you think that Israel would be doing what it is doing.

The people who say they feel sorry for the victims of the attack on 7th October and follow it by a But or However or try to justify it are just showing their real feelings and given how there seems to have been a green light given for people to show their antisemitism without consequences makes me think that the Uk isn’t the safest country to be living in right now.

Wow. Anyone criticising the Israeli government is called antisemitic by you. Yet you're openly islamaphobic.
And scholars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam will all say that all 3 are part of the Abrahamic religion.

I don’t think you can negotiate with them, however I also don’t think Hamas can be taken out unless Israel is literally going to try and destroy all of Gaza until there is nobody and nothing left. I also worry that mass death and destruction within Gaza will only make young Palestinians more vulnerable to radicalisation, if somebody has literally lost everything then they are going to be more likely to join a cause which offers them a purpose. Even if Hamas were taken out I don’t believe that another radical organisation wouldn’t eventually rise up, I don’t think the history of Nakba and occupation and war would be forgotten by the Palestinian people or that, even if Hamas were genuinely wiped out, the Israeli people could be able to trust that there wouldn’t be another terrorist attack. I also don’t really believe that Israel (as a state, not necessarilly individual Israelis) really wants Palestine to exist or be free and obviously the recent actions of Hamas will have only made it more difficult for Israel to feel they can give Palestinians in either occupied territory any freedom. I don’t know that I would be able to trust the other side if I was living on either side of the border for a long time, I’m not naive enough to think a peaceful solution is realistic in this century but I suppose I still think there must be a solution somewhere between peace and the current situation to ease the conflict and make life at least somewhat more bearable for the civilians caught up in it and that the current escalation of conflict is extreme.

@localnotail That's an interesting question. I personally would judge a person driving under influence very harshly. There's no excuse to wilfully endanger others like that. It's a different crime to premeditated and sadistic murder, which entails an active wish to harm rather than simply not caring about harming others. I can't say which is worse, they are both symptomatic of a lack of empathy. Sorry, I don't know the answer philosophically! The sadist is more driven and therefore more dangerous, so that would call for longer and more severe sentencing, I would think.