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Conflict in the Middle East
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Stomacharmeleon · 23/10/2023 21:40

Next post contains upsetting information....

Stomacharmeleon · 23/10/2023 21:39

Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2007? They continued to provide water, power, food etc and employ people from Gaza. Israel after being subjected to genocide by Hamas - footage has been shown to journalists today from bodycam and evidence shown that women and children were to be targeted for abduction and torture, a terrorist 'phoning home' to say he had personally murdered 14 Jews, a father protecting his sons and being killed by a grenade, his sons blinded and missing, need I go on.....
Now tell me why after all time and misappropriation of funds by Hamas Israel owes it anything? It's entitled under international law 'a robust response' and that's what it's doing.
Hamas hide behind their civilians and are protected by people either by fear or misplaced loyalty.
They need eradication.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 21:35

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:43

@rosemaryandparsley

You said, and I quote you word for word
“If Hamas appropriates the fuel to power rockets” as an excuse for why no humanitarian aid should include fuel even if over a hundred more babies die.

The fuel is diesel fuel. That is the fuel generators run on. Not rocket fuel.

Now you refuse to admit what you said was patently impossible:

“I never said diesel could be used for firing rockets..”

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 21:29

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:22

Your video confirms no fuel entered Gaza…Israel itself is saying it denies any fuel sent in. The UN says no fuel went in. What happened is reporters thought some tanker lorries had fuel in them but they did not.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 21:27

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:49

I'm not arguing with that.

It's a war.

A war that Israel didn't start.

Only if time began on 7 Oct 2023. You know as well as I do, that this is a long running conflict.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 21:26

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:43

They are massacring civilians. They are doing more than “trying”, it is happening.

Because Hamas inserts itself among civilians Rubbish. Hamas is underground in the tunnels. The air strikes cannot get them.

There is a military advantage to killing civilians and that is why international laws were written post WWII to make collective punishment of civilians war crimes.

Also, the earlier reports that these were fuel tankers was later corrected, they contained water not fuel. No fuel has gone into Gaza
”There are sufficient supplies of fuel waiting to be loaded onto trucks and transported into Gaza via the Rafah border crossing, but Dujarric demurred when asked why the UN has so far been unable to get any fuel shipments into the occupied territory.
"I don't want to go into all the details. What I can tell you is that we want to get fuel in we haven't been able to get all the hurdles moved for us to get that fuel in," he said when asked by a reporter why the UN has not been able to ship fuel in yet.” As of 2 hours ago.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/un-says-lack-of-fuel-in-gaza-of-great-concern-as-supplies-run-out/3030324
“Cairo, 23 October 2023 (TDI): Aid deliveries entering Gaza have not included fuel. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) faces an imminent crisis as its fuel reserves are set to be depleted within the next three days.
Expressing deep concern, UNRWA’s Commissioner General, Philippe Lazzarini, urgently called for immediate action to allow fuel supplies into Gaza.
He emphasized, “No fuel will further strangle the children, women, and people of Gaza,” highlighting the critical need for swift intervention to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe in the region.”
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-16-enarhe

UN says lack of fuel in Gaza of 'great concern' as supplies run out

'We're talking days, and when that happens that will be truly devastating,' says spokesperson Stephane Dujarric - Anadolu Ajansı

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/un-says-lack-of-fuel-in-gaza-of-great-concern-as-supplies-run-out/3030324

ChickHenLittle · 23/10/2023 21:12

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 21:05

"commit war crimes"

War Crimes are decided by the International Criminal Court, not by posters on SM.

"wipe out Gaza,"

There is no military advantage to 'wiping out Gaza'. If Israel had wanted to do that Gaza would be a smoking ruin by now.

"they could stop the killing, but won't."

The Allies could have 'stopped the killing' in WW2. Then in UK we would all be living under a fascist regime now and speaking German. Also there wouldn't be a Jew left alive in UK.

In fact you and I might not even exist.

Very bizarre post. I am aware war crimes aren't decides by, well, me...? Many reputable organisations and experts have posited that the Israeli government have committed war crimes, historically as well as in the current conflict.

I don't think they have decided not to wipe out Gaza. It is a possibility and it is certainly getting bombed heavily every day with more buildings being destroyed.

Yes, that is a very brief summary of WW2, a completely different war with completely different situations.

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 21:05

ChickHenLittle · 23/10/2023 20:57

That doesn't give the government carte blanche to commit war crimes and wipe out Gaza, they could stop the killing, but won't.

"commit war crimes"

War Crimes are decided by the International Criminal Court, not by posters on SM.

"wipe out Gaza,"

There is no military advantage to 'wiping out Gaza'. If Israel had wanted to do that Gaza would be a smoking ruin by now.

"they could stop the killing, but won't."

The Allies could have 'stopped the killing' in WW2. Then in UK we would all be living under a fascist regime now and speaking German. Also there wouldn't be a Jew left alive in UK.

In fact you and I might not even exist.

ChickHenLittle · 23/10/2023 20:57

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:49

I'm not arguing with that.

It's a war.

A war that Israel didn't start.

That doesn't give the government carte blanche to commit war crimes and wipe out Gaza, they could stop the killing, but won't.

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:51

Efacsen · 23/10/2023 19:50

Hamas has released 2 more hostages

Reuters

That is excellent news.

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:49

ChickHenLittle · 23/10/2023 20:46

Whether they're trying or not, it's happening.

I'm not arguing with that.

It's a war.

A war that Israel didn't start.

ChickHenLittle · 23/10/2023 20:46

Whether they're trying or not, it's happening.

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:43

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 19:47

@rosemaryandparsley

The decision to bombard Gaza is a decision to massacre civilians, half of which are children. It was and is deliberate.

Secondly diesel fuel for generators is not rocket fuel. So your contention that Hamas appropriates fuel for rockets is wildly incorrect.

Israel is in fact responsible for the lack of power in Gaza. It was part of the blockade and is now part of the siege to deny them power.

Edited

No-one is 'trying to massacre civilians'.

There is no military advantage to killing civilians.

Because Hamas inserts itself among civilians then any 'surgical strikes' may well have unintended casualties.

I never said diesel could be used for firing rockets, I said I saw petrol tankers entering Gaza - and here are more pictures ;

https://www.voanews.com/a/more-aid-moves-into-gaza-but-un-warns-of-impending-fuel-shortage/7321523.html

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-first-fuel-trucks-war-torn-gaza-through-rafah-border-from-egypt-4504983

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rare-fuel-delivery-enters-gaza-085619531.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMkmy77IHFunxTSFDaecaKqwHUzO7CGfUVbw_AJzf-Fb-bowdNgc-vWXLDn2jBYYh75P3GK6Doj_Bji-gU9ldI285NLYKbivQYDK697uPF0UPK-NjNDHv81EBDt7FGhB9-8tGxfh6oyQSnFfdzzYxlnOP9W3D3Ai8B3g_peptVLD

More Aid Moves into Gaza, but UN Warns of Impending Fuel Shortage

Fuel supply could run out by Wednesday, UN Palestinian relief chief says

https://www.voanews.com/a/more-aid-moves-into-gaza-but-un-warns-of-impending-fuel-shortage/7321523.html

beachcitygirl · 23/10/2023 20:27

As usual @TheWayTheLightFalls measured sensible discussion with yourself.

I agree in part but the videos of Gaza in total destruction are clear to see & the plea by MAP are heartbreaking.
The reports by reputable journalists & foreign correspondents & videos such as the mother In law of Scotlands First Minister trapped in Gaza with her 2 month old grandchild can't be ignored nor are they manufactured.
Those prem babies are still going to die most likely.

I agree propaganda is rife on both sides. That's why on last thread I begged a few posters for caution when repeating stories without proper third party respected media confirmation.

Its desperate

TheWayTheLightFalls · 23/10/2023 20:18

Isn’t that what SWAT and military infantry teams are for? If terrorists had a rocket launcher on a primary school in Birmingham, we would never air strike the school with all the kids inside. Or encircle Birmingham and lay a siege on it and bombard the whole city- we’d send in teams to evacuate the kids, and seize the rocket launcher.

Sure - Israel seems to have a lot of those, I think the military generally is highly trained and highly motivated (and well funded). But from their POV, to use your example, the whole of Birmingham contains armed terrorists (not to be interpreted as every Brummie being a terrorist, faod). I don't endorse the killing of innocent civilians here (ISR) or there, and I hope and pray that Israel is acting to identify and eliminate legitimate military targets - I hope that a desire for revenge and hatred towards Hamas doesn't lead to indiscriminate violence against ordinary Palestinians. But I'm not them, and I don't have the information about why x or y building is bombed. And unfortunately the info coming out of Gaza comes from Hamas, who are about as reliable as a used car salesman on charlie. So Hamas saying "Look, Israel dropped a bomb and it killed eleventy million Gazans!" unfortunately doesn't register with me unless it's been verified by a reputable third party. So we can't even base our discussion around agreed facts of who has bombed/attacked what. It's all a huge, huge mess.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 20:17

LeatherJacketsAndTightBlueJeans · 23/10/2023 20:04

Israel has been collecting intelligence for decades and has been stopping known terrorists for decades - just as they hunted down and killed or captured Nazi fugitives - and it continues to do so. But that’s not enough to stop the mass of Iranian-backed terrorism.

When the nation and its people are threatened with destruction it’s proper and justifiable that Israel defends itself generally.

The blockade, siege, mass bombardment and now only allowing a trickle of aid is not self defence. These are war crimes.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 20:15

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:09

@WhiteHorseSpirit" Isn’t that what SWAT and military infantry teams are for? If terrorists had a rocket launcher on a primary school in Birmingham, we would never air strike the school with all the kids inside. Or encircle Birmingham and lay a siege on it and bombard the whole city- we’d send in teams to evacuate the kids, and seize the rocket launcher."

It's a bit different in Gaza with snipers and booby traps. Hamas even booby trap kids bags and dead bodies.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/video-hamas-leaves-behind-booby-trapped-israeli-childrens-bags-4505861

https://nypost.com/2023/10/17/hamas-killed-mom-in-front-of-her-two-young-boys-booby-trapped-her-body/

Terrorist tactics are the same everywhere. Snipers, IEDs, that is not new or different.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 20:14

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 19:54

Well, I saw footage yesterday from the Rafa crossing yesterday, and unless my eyes are deceiving me I saw 3 petrol tankers going through.

And here's the report;

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20231022-rare-fuel-delivery-enters-gaza-israel-steps-up-strikes

So can we stop the emotive, inaccurate rhetoric about ' murdering prem babies' please?

Those were not fuel tankers. No fuel has gone into Gaza as of 2 hours ago. Israel is not allowing any delivery of diesel fuel - which again cannot be used for rockets.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/third-aid-convoy-starts-entering-gaza-but-still-no-fuel/ar-AA1iIjYK

And Reuters is reporting 130 babies in the NICU will die tonight if no power caused by no fuel.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-neonatal-unit-warns-babies-risk-within-minutes-if-power-fails-2023-10-23/

There is nothing inaccurate about the dire conditions in Gaza.

MSN

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/third-aid-convoy-starts-entering-gaza-but-still-no-fuel/ar-AA1iIjYK

beachcitygirl · 23/10/2023 20:13

So

@rosemaryandparsley just to be very very clear here.

Are you in support of the siege on Gaza and the collective punishment of 2.2 million Palestinians?

Including no food water or electricity or escape from the Israeli bombing.

Are you ok with the breaking of international law ?

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 20:09

@WhiteHorseSpirit" Isn’t that what SWAT and military infantry teams are for? If terrorists had a rocket launcher on a primary school in Birmingham, we would never air strike the school with all the kids inside. Or encircle Birmingham and lay a siege on it and bombard the whole city- we’d send in teams to evacuate the kids, and seize the rocket launcher."

It's a bit different in Gaza with snipers and booby traps. Hamas even booby trap kids bags and dead bodies.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/video-hamas-leaves-behind-booby-trapped-israeli-childrens-bags-4505861

https://nypost.com/2023/10/17/hamas-killed-mom-in-front-of-her-two-young-boys-booby-trapped-her-body/

Hamas killed Canadian-Israeli mom in front of her young sons, booby-trapped her body: report

A Canadian-Israeli mom was murdered in front of her two young sons by Hamas terrorists — who booby-trapped her body and then used the children as human shields, according to a report.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/17/hamas-killed-mom-in-front-of-her-two-young-boys-booby-trapped-her-body

LeatherJacketsAndTightBlueJeans · 23/10/2023 20:04

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 19:53

Isn’t that what SWAT and military infantry teams are for? If terrorists had a rocket launcher on a primary school in Birmingham, we would never air strike the school with all the kids inside. Or encircle Birmingham and lay a siege on it and bombard the whole city- we’d send in teams to evacuate the kids, and seize the rocket launcher.

Israel has been collecting intelligence for decades and has been stopping known terrorists for decades - just as they hunted down and killed or captured Nazi fugitives - and it continues to do so. But that’s not enough to stop the mass of Iranian-backed terrorism.

When the nation and its people are threatened with destruction it’s proper and justifiable that Israel defends itself generally.

Efacsen · 23/10/2023 20:02

Yep support for IDF was good

But trust in Netanyahu was only in the 35% range

EasternStandard · 23/10/2023 19:56

On what Israelis support that hasn’t been spoken about much

Netanyahu is held responsible for failures but at same time a limited poll indicated that 65% of Israelis were in support of the expected ground invasion of Gaza by Israeli troops.

(Limited meaning a 4.3% margin of error)

rosemaryandparsley · 23/10/2023 19:54

WhiteHorseSpirit · 23/10/2023 19:49

Fuel was actually delivered today, so let's see if it gets to where it belongs.
I have only seen reports stating no fuel has been delivered yet.

Well, I saw footage yesterday from the Rafa crossing yesterday, and unless my eyes are deceiving me I saw 3 petrol tankers going through.

And here's the report;

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20231022-rare-fuel-delivery-enters-gaza-israel-steps-up-strikes

So can we stop the emotive, inaccurate rhetoric about ' murdering prem babies' please?

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