What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?

Not sure what your google source

As I said Wikipedia - that’s Google for you.

If Golan belonged to Syria then when land did Israel offer to return to the Palestinians? You mention the 70s but The Six Day War happened in the 60s so the Palestinian territories were already occupied by that point.

Not sure what your google source is but the Golan Heights belonged to Syria. It was actually never part of mandatory Palestine and would never have been offered to the Palestinians (nor have they ever claimed it).

As I told you above, back in the 70s, before the whole settlement craziness started, Israel approached arab states to exchange land for peace but was told a most certain no. No one was talking about a palestinina state at that point, by the way, not even the Palestinians. That idea came later when Egypt and Jordan gave up their claims on Palestine. The Palestinians were still convinced that they could destroy Israel. The PLO only recognised Israel during the Oslo peace talks in the 90s.

What do you mean large chunks of Palestinian territory? Was there a Palestinian state established? Or was the land taken from Egypt and Jordan respectively after they attacked Israel in 1967?

(to save you googling, the answer is that, no, Egypt and Jordan did not establish a Palestinian state - because they never wanted one - so no Palestinian territories were taken chunks out of - they were parts of Egypt and Jordan respectively)

There were previous offers too. Even back in 1967, the Arab League declared the 'Three Nos of Khartoum' (No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel.) in response to Israeli overtures for peace for the land captured. Egypt was later expelled from the Arab League in 1979 for agreeing to peace with israel in exchange for the Sinai peninsula.

And, yes, Ehud Olmert in 2008 offered the Palestinians all of gaza and 94% of the West bank with land swap for land in Israel for the other 6% (in order to keep the large settlement blocs intact). Guess who said no? (to save you googling, it was the Palestinians).

Okaay so I did Google it after all.

According to that ever reliable source of information, Wikipedia, when Israel gave land back to Egypt it also offered to give Golan back to the Palestinians , but not Gaza or the West Bank?

Perhaps if it had then the Palestinians would not have become so radicalised? Then again who’s to say. I’m sure some of them consider all of Palestine theirs not just the occupied territories.

Some actions by Israel seem a bit antagonistic though. I’m thinking of the settlements in the West Bank here.

@Parkingt111
I can't speak for all Israelis as there are some many groups: Israeli arabs - who are Palestinians but citizens of Israel, Israeli secular Jews, Israeli orthodox Jews, Israeli ultra orthdox and then some.

I obviously, like all of us, am in a bit of an echo chamber. Most of my friends and family think like me but I don't think we represent the whole country.

There is no doubt that the whole country has moved to the right and become more nationalist. This trend started with the hamas attacks in the 90s and then intensified after the Second Intifada.

For example, Meretz - the party I vote for - considered left of centre. In 1992 they got nearly 10% of the vote. In 2022, they got about 3% and didn't even make it into parliatment. The Labour party, more centre left, got 35% of the vote in 1992 and nearly 4% in 2022!!!

I did become hopeful during the protests this past year on the judicial coup. I believe that the occupation is intrinsically tied up with this undemocratic move. You can't have a democracy and an occupation - the two are contradictory at the most basic level. There were voices making this connection (including mine!). A minority, admittedly, but that connection was growing. I'll honestly say though is that a lot Israelis don't care either way regarding the occupation of the west bank or what's happening in the gaza strip. I think they kind of grown immune, especially since the second intifada and all the insanity that went on then. Now, you can live in Tel Aviv in a comfortable bubble and forget about what is happening 50 or 60 km away. Until you have to face it though...

I have a cousin who used to be quite right wing. He's super patriotic and was an officer in the army. Then he found himself patrolling around the Palestinian territories, chasing kids throwing rocks. He's a decent and honest person - and he thought WTF and realised how messed up this is and became very left. He influenced me a lot actually in understanding the unfairness and injustice of this situation and even if I defend other things about Israel, the occupation is wrong and needs to end and even if there's not going to be a Palestinian state tomorrow, Israel should not be moving its civillian population on to territory which is under military rule for some and Israeli civil rule for others.

I'll be honest, since the attack of 7/10, i have heard a lot of calls for revenge and dehumanizing of Palestinians, especially Gazans. I can understand it. In times of war, it's so easy to dehumanise the other side and Israelis are in a lot of pain right now. In our era of 24/7 news and social media, the horror stories are constant and they are really really horrifying. The funerals are constant. There are still hundreds of bodies to identify because they were tortured and desecrated and burnt to the point they can't be identified. When I hear dehumanising language, i do push back against it as we need to constantly remind ourselves that despite the pain inflicted on us, the Gazans are suffering too and no one is going to wipe anyone out.

So this is a long answer to your question and probably not a very clear one - I had to think things through in my head before writing as I don't have much clarity of vision and I am torn between different emotions.

Perhaps the events of the last 2 awful weeks will change something. Palestinians will accept they're not going to get rid of Israel and if they try it works out badly for them everytime. Israelis need to accept that 2 million Gazans in the Gaza strip will not just disappear and that a political solution is needed, not just for the west bank for gaza as well - and that the status quo won't go on forever. But I fear that Israel will go more to the right, more nationalistic and the same for the Palestinians - that the divide will become all the bigger.

And israel offered the Palestinians land many times previously

Israel took large chunks of the Palestinian territories during the Six Day War. If it offered to give some back then that’s good but I’m not sure when?

(please don’t ask me to Google it. I’m not going to)

@Meshigenus I'm sorry. I was just asking why the West Bank can not supply water to Gaza, e.g. from the river Jordan, as it is Palestinian territory/ I also wondered if there were other fresh water sources in Gaza or West Bank.

To be fair, Hamas did a pretty good job of strengthing that argument....

And let's remember that every inch of sinai was returned to Egypt in exchange for peace and that included dismantling settlements which were built there.

And israel offered the Palestinians land many times previously.

So it's not as simple as 'oh, nasty israel just wants land'

Thank you. I am glad you agree on this. As you are israeli I am asking as a genuine question is your view point on this the majority view? Or minority or let's say 50/50
Also how much power do the ordinary Israelis have in stopping this?

@DownNative But the West Bank has the river Jordan?

They would require a solar powered desalination plant in West Bank.

These complicated talks have been ongoing since well before this latest conflict, so it's not straightforward.

That's not to say its not in the best interests of Israel and the Palestinian Authority. It is.

"There's a long history of, for example, border crossings into Gaza, being used as a lever to try to get political developments into a certain direction. From a very cynical perspective, Israel has an interest in not increasing desperation in Palestinian territories because that would be a huge challenge to Israeli security."

• Benjamin Pohl, head of Adelphi's climate diplomacy and security programme

7th October 2023 will have massively impacted on these discussions, so the problem still comes back to solving the security issue in order to begin the long process of reaching a political settlement.

Get Hamas out of the way, solve the security issues and ensure there's regime change in Gaza.

Of course, it's more complicated than that, but you get the gist.

They could supply each other, releasing Israel from responsibility

I assume they can’t since they don’t. I doubt Israel would allow it anyway. They don’t want to be released from responsibility, they want to keep the Palestinian Territories under their control. They would argue their safety depends on it.

Sure, maybe not everyone.
But would have been nice for something to have been done instead of importing RPGs. That's the point

Would if of been possible though? To smuggle the parts needed and build in new infrastructure with no one noticing?

Why do you think I wouldn't agree that its disgusting???
I saw that and thought it was terrible too!!

No excuse and totally outrageous.

I am very scared about what's happening in the west bank. Things were bad before but since this crazy government came into power with fascist right wing racist elements, its got even worse.

In fact, not only is it awful what those settlers and soldiers did on its own but they're traitors to israel because this kind of stuff could cause the west bank to explode.

@Gruntsandgroans Rain water? That's crazy.

@Gruntsandgroans How strange. It would relieve Israel of this burden, and allow both areas to be more self sufficient. Surely they should be able to use their own resources to help create a viable Palestinian state in the future, which I thought the international community supported.

Israel don't allow it.
Edited to add Israel also control a lot of the water in the West Bank, they even control people there collecting rainwater. It is a very deliberate move by them to keep Palestinians reliant on them.

Whilst Israel is also continuing to fire into Gaza at a much bigger scale

Does neither Gaza or West Bank have any water sources? They could supply each other, releasing Israel from responsibility.

First, even while those 20 lorries were entering, Hamas fired missiles on tel aviv! Wtf??? Clearly trying to provoke an israeli response so they can then blame israel for attacking an aid convoy.

Second, mechanisms need to be in place to ensure none of this aid will get into the hands of hamas and that it is purely humanitarian aid. That's not easy because hamas controls everything. They've got very rich off the back of International aid.

Sure, maybe not everyone.
But would have been nice for something to have been done instead of importing RPGs. That's the point. Hamas knows they are reliant on evil israel for water but attacks israel nonetheless without having done anything to secure any alternative sources.
Perhaps they could ask Egypt to supply water as before 1967.
Personally I think israle should supply water until they can make alternative arrangements with Egypt for humanitarian reasons.

Israel has allowed 20 lorries of aid into Gaza. They need, as a minimum 500 a day. Withholding basics of food, water and medical supplies to the Palestinian people can only be classed as a war crime. I hope the world will collectively stand together to bring action and accountability against the perpetrators in the Israeli government.

That's one.

One suggestion floated even at this early stage by the US is a PA government backed by the UN.

A long way to go, but we're seeing a mew political reality in real time. Neither side will accept Israeli responsibility for Gaza in future.

Is it this one ?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4923771-an-academics-analysis-of-the-conflict

You stated that the UN would prefer the PA to self-govern Gaza but I think that has always been their view. Obviously this won’t happen while Hamas are in charge.

Couldn’t see anything to indicate the UN no longer consider Israel to be occupying Gaza.

Bumped it up.

"An academic's analysis", I think.