Page 13 | TTC Super Ovulation part 3

Arianrhod · 2012-10-08T07:30:07+00:00

Hey ladies - There are a few of us who are ttc after mc's, however there will be ladies out there who are also ttc for the first time or second or third without success. If anyone is on, considering or had success on a super ovulation programme then do join us. How long did it take ? Did you try IUI with it.. ? Did you have PCOS? Kicking this off and hoping some of you will join.... part 1 here: [[www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/1385998-TTC-Super-Ovulation]] Part 2 here: [[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/1475108-TTC-Super-Ovulation-part-2?pg=1]]

Original poster

Arianrhod · 22/03/2013 13:55

Hi ladies - I've been reading around on Dr Braverman's site (he's one helpful chap, albeit I understand stonkingly expensive to have even a Skype consultation with!) and just read something really interesting on low LAD levels (I have unbelievably low LAD levels) as I think a couple of others on here also got tested? Anyway, just thought I'd share, in the spirit of being better informed! :) The lady in question had had a previous live birth, which is why he mentions that.

contrary to the incorrect thinking about LAD, if you have had a live birth you DONT want to have a positive LAD this is a sign you did not get rid of your anti HLA antibodies by failing to make the protective or blocking antibodies. The LAD does NOT test for blocking antibodies it only makes the incorrect assumption that if you have the bad anti HLA antibodies you probably made the protective ones.
It is good that yoru LAD was low, it means that is not your problem. Also you dont make anti HLA antibodies until the 3rd trimester you also should not see them in someone who has never made it past the first trimester.
The clexane should cover your other issues.

(look at my blogs for more on the LAD testing issue). LIT is recommended to frequently for the wrong reason . It may however still be good for other issues.

and a bit later:

there is a lot of confusion about LAD that I have been trying to clear up on our website. I hope I explain this well. The LAD looks for the presence of "bad" HLA antibodies, that means these antibodies WILL attack the pregnancy. It does not measure the production of the 'good" antibodies called protecive or blocking antibodies. It has been incorreclty asummed that if the bad ones are there the good ones must be too? This has been disproven.
When you are pregnant the your body first makes the bad antibodies in the third trimester, then you make the good ones which do away with . So if you come around to your next pregnancy and they are still there that is bad, it means you did NOT make the protective ones.
New studies have shown that a high LAD with a history of a previous full term pregnancy is a poor sign for success of the next ones.
Since we dont know from LIT who will and wont make the protective antibody we have to be very carefull who we recommend it to , especially if they have already completed a full term pregnancy.

So it looks like if you haven't got into the third trimester, then you WILL have low LAD levels anyway - so they're not something to worry about. Well that's one less thing on my list of worries, anyway! :)

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Original poster

Arianrhod · 21/03/2013 14:53

belly If I were you, I'd be doing exactly the same. Sometimes controlling every step you can (obviously we can't control ALL of it, unfortunately!) is the best way, and best for as much peace of mind as is possible to have in this process. There's far too much of a random element in all of this for my liking, control-freak that I am! :)

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BellyD · 21/03/2013 14:29

Hi all. Duggs I did SO three times (with Mr S) having also used clomid at St Mary's. I was lucky enough to get two bfp's in those 3 months but both preg's ended in mmc. Unfussy womb? Interestingly, the second time Mr S said I had responded to the letrozole like a 20year old - but my AMH after that MC was 0.59. I then had a scan at Create which showed I had 10 antral follicles - which Dr Ndukwe said meant my AMH result should have been higher - weird! We have decided on ivf to control every step of the process in the hope of getting my nkc under control and testing any embryo's we are lucky enough to produce. Mr S suggested not to do this due to the expense and said we should keep going with SO - the worst case scenario being "you could just have another miscarriage"! Unbelievable, don't think I need to say any more as you ladies will understand.

Ari thanks for the article links. Interesting reading x

Pebbles73 · 21/03/2013 13:26

Sorry for the double post the other day, thought I had lost it so started again!

Duggs I just did the 6 rounds if super ov. Mr S said I should try another go while waiting for ivf as I responded well but couldn't afford it as was going away. Now think I will just wait for ivf it at least until have had the humira. Only thing is do you really medic to do the cycles consecutively??

Have to say I agree with Ari re the egg thing, seems to much if a generalisation.

mollieboo · 21/03/2013 09:28

Hi Duggs, ok thanks for the info that's great. Thanks also for ivf info on pred thread in case you didn't see my late reply. Must have been devastating for the ivf rounds to fail after so much testing and being on immune treatment. I really hope the next round works for you now that you've sorted the other issues. I hope my next SO pregnancy works but if not at least I know about further testing now.

duggs1976 · 21/03/2013 06:39

Mollie day 3 is fine ( it does vary between 2&6 and 3&7 ) from what I've read. I've done both before. As for trigger shot - you should request it as directions are from dr s and it at least guarantees you ovulate when follies are at optimal size and not too big and over ripe. The local clinic shouldnt have an issue as ovritrelle isn't controversial as far as I know.
Best of luck

mollieboo · 20/03/2013 18:01

Hi ladies, I always keep up with this thread as its a mine of information, esp as I'm toying with ivf.

Re SO, does anyone know if it makes any difference starting Letrazole on cd3 instead of cd2 as directed by Mr S? Reason being I want to rule out a bfp before taking as I sometimes get a period when pregnant. Also, if I go to a clinic local to me for a follicle scan will they do or advise me when to do a trigger shot? Just wondering if most clinics are ok with superovulation and trigger shots or if some prefer you to ovulate naturally. Thanks for any advice x

Original poster

Arianrhod · 20/03/2013 13:23

Sorry I forgot to make those clickable links :( Here they are again, but clickable!

haveababy.com/fertility-information/ivf-authority/failed-ivf-chemical-pregnancy-and-miscarriage/
haveababy.com/infertility-information/causes-of-infertility-implantation-failure/

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Original poster

Arianrhod · 20/03/2013 13:23

Also this might be of interest: haveababy.com/infertility-information/causes-of-infertility-implantation-failure/

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Original poster

Arianrhod · 20/03/2013 13:22

Just came across this article and thought it very relevant given our discussion about egg quality and miscarriages: haveababy.com/fertility-information/ivf-authority/failed-ivf-chemical-pregnancy-and-miscarriage/

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Original poster

Arianrhod · 20/03/2013 09:25

6 cycles for me here, yes - although Louise (in her wonderfully encouraging way) did say that they've often seen it happen where the 7th was the charm. I didn't try a 7th, so I don't know about that.

Hmm I'm a bit sceptical of stats .. where do they get those figures from? How do they know? Taking myself as an example - I conceived DD when I was 3 months past 38 from a one-off (never go on holiday with an ex!), does that mean I was just "lucky" to get one of my 4 viable eggs? I don't believe it - I don't think they can generalise that much. It's going to depend on each individual - there are 20 year olds with POF and bugger all in the way of decent eggs; equally there are 40+ year olds who are unbelievably fertile.

As for us - if we didn't have the NK cell/TNFa/infection/DQa/etc issues, who's to say how many of those we unfortunately miscarried weren't 'good' eggs? Unfortunately for us other issues have meant we just don't know how properly 'fertile' any of us are.

Not that thinking that way helps any of us for one minute, I know! It's just 'they' can't possibly know how many viable eggs an 'average' 38 year old has, without checking the eggs of every single 38 year old ... ! :)

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duggs1976 · 20/03/2013 06:32

Lovely ladies.
It is easier on this thread I think, as we seem to be in similar boats. Brown was champion of research. I hope she stays on the pred thread ( in a good way brown as am sure you are reading this?)

Can I ask who on here is still doing SO?
Did we all reach our 6 cycles then to no avail? With a couple of exceptions - kittens and brown was there anyone else.. ?

I wonder.
I did read that the average 38 year old will have 4 viable eggs per year - a third of them. Which does leave 8 bad ones. Should that make us feel a little better that we are no longer conceiving as easily/ at all?

Pebbles73 · 19/03/2013 22:21

Sorry Ari I forgot to say thanks for understanding earlier and how much I appreciate having you lovely ladies to talk to who completely understand, makes me feel not alone in this nightmare situation. As literally all my friends have kids it can feel a bit lonely sometimes.

Your explanation makes perfect sense and I desperately hope it works for you. Like everybody on here you really deserve it.

Pebbles73 · 19/03/2013 22:12

Sorry Ari I forgot to say thanks for sending me some positivity, god knows we all need it. Where would we be without this group of lovely people to talk to who understand com

Original poster

Arianrhod · 19/03/2013 21:39

I wondered that too pebbles but from what I've read, embryos are treated differently to any other form of tissue implanted into the body. Because an embryo has different DNA from the mother under ordinary circumstances anyway (because of the father's DNA vis the sperm), for some reason I don't know yet the uterus protects it against the body's normal reactions to foreign bodies. So we shouldn't have more of an NK cell reaction than we would with our own eggs.

And of course no offence taken, everyone has their own feelings about what tests are right for them. From what I have read (I read a lot :) ) infections can equally cause miscarriages or stop someone from getting pregnant in the first place.

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Pebbles73 · 19/03/2013 21:02

Totally understand what you are saying Choccy and think you are doing the right thing for you which is the most important thing. I feel a bit like you re further testing and think you can go on-and on with that and still not find an exact reason for things.
I thought about the hidden infections test but for me just not sure it is worth it. For those of you who have had it done please don't take that that the wrong way, is it done mainly to help prevent miscarriage or to help get pregnant?

As for donor eggs Duggs it was something I was thinking about before I found out about the nk cells and immune issues. From the ivf cycles I have had though they always say my eggs are healthy so don't feel that is my problem. Also we originally started ttc when I was 29 so surely my eggs would have been healthy at that age which makes me think it is not the problem. As I never get pregnant naturally I feel it is an implantation and immune issue.

Can I ask how the immune thing works with donor eggs, I always assumed that the nk cells would react even more in this situation. I assume taking pred helps to stop this happening??

Original poster

Arianrhod · 19/03/2013 20:16

Hmm that didn't come out quite right when I said "like choccy I have to believe that the majority of my problems are with my eggs" - that seems to say that Choccy said she had probs with her eggs, which of course she didn't!! I just meant that Choccy thinks she knows where her problems may lie, and so do I.

That'll teach me to post on my iPad where I can't see it all properly laid out!!

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Original poster

Arianrhod · 19/03/2013 20:13

Very much so choccy, it makes absolute sense. It was just a thought, is all, I am certain you're doing the right thing for you right now. Positive thinking is very powerful, it could well be that you've done already exactly what you need for this next pregnancy (see the positivity there? :) ) to work. As ever, firmly crossing everything for you!

pebbles You definitely don't need to apologise for feeling down .. god knows you have every right to be, and all of us here know exactly what you mean! I often feel exactly the same way, it often feels like I will just never get the little sibling for DD that I'm so desperate to get. But like choccy I have to believe that the majority of my problems are with my eggs (once the NK cells are addressed) and therefore that we stand a damn good chance with donor eggs. I have to have some positivity or else go quietly mad. Sending lots of extra positivity your way too :)

duggs Well thinking options over is always a good thing, I think. One question though - your eggs were checked, weren't they, with the aCGH testing? I know your DH's sperm had fragmentation issues at the time, is it possible that your eggs were actually just fine and it was the sperm that fertilised them at the time that was the problem? And thereby meaning that now that your DH's sperm is hopefully sorted thanks to the anti-bs, a future IVF should be good? Just a thought, and a hope really.

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ChoccyPud · 19/03/2013 19:44

I'm in the 2ww at the moment.

I'm not saying never with testing for hidden infections but it'd feel like a total waste of the £1300 hysteroscopy to stop again and take a month or longer(?) out before June when the scoring and humira will have both definitely lost their effectiveness, to get tested and possibly do anti biotics. If the next one fails, then absolutely I'll look at it but as I said before I am getting to the point where to an extent no matter what other tests I could have, I feel I need to look at other options and surrogacy is the most "attractive" seeing as dh and I can obviously conceive and it seems to be a case of an inhospitable environment. Right now, I don't feel a desperate need to have a million more tests or be satisfied I have a definite explanation for it.

Maybe it's partly that I'm so drained I can't take on any more problems or reasons why... I'm trying to keep neutral/positive about getting upduffed again, whilst trying to live my life and not let this take over it completely, and certainly at this stage, when we're ttc and I'm possibly brewing an 8th pg right now, it's just not the time to get all het up about other issues and possibilities... I need to stay postive and remain confident that we will conceive again and remember that I'm entirely comfortable with what we are doing differently this time, ie hysteroscopy and scroring, and keep my fingers crossed and pecker up.

Does that all make sense to you guys?!

duggs1976 · 19/03/2013 17:58

These discussions have got me thinking about donor eggs. If this first IVF round fails maybe I should consider going to serum and using donor eggs like ari? Pebbles what do u think about that is it a bit of a shot in the dark for u? I think for us who've not yet had a baby and are not over 40 there really must be something up with our eggs to not be getting pg successfully ? What do u think ? I need to research it but I have started to think about it as I now know DH sperm ok so must just be me. Seems much easier solution than surrogacy?

Pebbles73 · 19/03/2013 14:13

I know what you mean about finding the money Ari, it all adds up hugely. It is partly the reason i have decided not to look into further immune testing such as the ones Dr Gorgy does. Also I feel half the time they just treat other immune issues with steroids or it involves ivig which I just couldn't really afford on top of humira and ivf. It is all such a mine field knowing what to do for the best! I just feel the chances of having a baby now is virtually zero.....
Oh well my new credit card to pay for treatment should be here any day so I can start getting in with things. Sorry to be on a downer!!

Choccy I feel for you as it is very hard putting on a brave face, I have often found myself in the toilet at work having a few tears.

duggs1976 · 19/03/2013 14:13

Choccy I'm with ari on this! If left to dr s then me and DH would still have hidden infections. ( not picked up by standard tests which I had due to IVF). Just seems like for the sake of £300 it might be worth while but appreciate if you have had enough testing and are happy to continue. Where r u now in cycle ?

duggs1976 · 19/03/2013 14:13

Choccy I'm with ari on this! If left to dr s then me and DH would still have hidden infections. ( not picked up by standard tests which I had due to IVF). Just seems like for the sake of £300 it might be worth while but appreciate if you have had enough testing and are happy to continue. Where r u now in cycle ?

Original poster

Arianrhod · 19/03/2013 12:11

Mmm I would just say that when I sent the photos of my hysto last August to Penny at Serum she saw red streaks which she says are indicative of infection, but Mr S pronounced me all clear. She did say that these are often missed/overlooked ... I'm not saying it's definitely the problem, but perhaps it's worth checking out? Cost isn't much, it's a bit yucky collecting the sample but I suspect by now most of us are past caring! Just a thought ...

That is tough, and you're right, unless you've been through this I don't think people can realise how much it hurts. Much as you may be pleased for the other person, still it's a kick in the teeth when you've been through so much and still haven't got there yet. I remember how naive I was before that first miscarriage, I honestly didn't consider miscarriage at all. I just thought oh, great, that's it, I'm pregnant .. off I went with the pregnancy apps, showing progress from day to day, sharing it all with DP (who's never had a baby before), planning names, etc etc. You just don't consider it going wrong - and you certainly don't feel the pain and heartache that those who've been through recurrent miscarriages feel whenever they hear about another successful pregnancy/birth/whatever.

I know that should I be lucky enough that this coming IVF cycle works, I will still not relax until I get past the 'viable' stage. And even then, until the baby is actually born and physically out in the world. That chance seems unbelievably distant right now.

As you rightly say choccy, it's exhausting!

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ChoccyPud · 19/03/2013 12:04

Hey Ari. Mr G found no scarring and no sign of infection but no I've not been tested for hidden c or anything. Scratching should help with implantation yes. Thanks for the amazon info. Never occurs to me to look on there for supplements!

There are FIVE pg's half way through or just been announced at work. Three in a week. That was a tough one, as is all the excited clucky chat that follows afterwards. To the uninitiated it must be hard to get why we FEEL news of other people's pg's so much or take the news quite hard. We've talked on here/Pred thread before about it but I get so tired of avoiding questions or putting a brave face on sometimes! You don't ask for special treatment obv but it can be so exhausting can't it?!