Why are so many YP going to uni, when uni isn't right for so many YP? AIBU to think fewer YP should go to uni as it's only giving them a huge debt?

Ours did an Engineering Degree apprenticeship, graduated this year. He’s only 24 has a degree (no student debt) and four years hands on experience from a huge international manufacturer. Chatting to him a couple of weeks ago since finishing his apprenticeship he’s now on more £££ than me!

There's a definite theme to a lot of the replies on this which focus on how much debt students acquire through university when there are other routes to jobs which will give them well (if not better) paid jobs.

I don't disagree that universities themselves are pretty much just businesses now, but the teaching staff and courses (aside from a few odd ones) aren't. I agree the debt is ridiculous, but it's paid back as a percentage of income which is not extortionate and also gets written off eventually.

With the way things are going, young people will spend the rest of their lives in the cogs of society, earning just enough to pay for enough subscriptions to milk enough pleasure to distract themselves from how increasingly isolated they all are. But, hey, they'll get marginally more money without going to university so why give them that little taste of fun and freedom. Get them into the workforce immediately!!

Actually, now I'm writing it, maybe it is for the best- avoid any higher education or institution which might teach us about anything existential that will help us see how enslaved hypercapitalism is going to make us and instill us with cold dread...

IME, some university-educated parents push their kids to do so because they think it's the right thing to do regardless of their child's ability.

There are some schools push for the university route to make themselves look better - even with guidelines in place that all post-16 and post-18 education and training options should be shared without bias, there is still an opinion - as shown on this thread - that apprenticeships are for 'the kids who need' / the kids who aren't academic. There is also, even in councils promoting other options, language used around certain training that treats it as turning around a bad situation rather than something to aspire to do which discourages some.

I also think we have an issue where in some sectors where we're seeing those places that use apprentices a lot of cheaper labour, but don't keep them on and the places who don't want to do any training at all who aren't hiring young people. Plenty of young people who do go the apprenticeship route, while not getting into debt (unless they leave early, then they can occur some fees), do end up going through the same issue their university peers are of struggling to find permanent employment. I know plenty of both who are in the agency cycle.

I do quite a few young people who aren't going to university, at least not right away, and my kids know even more. My DD2 is in Y13 at a college and in her course, more people are planning on going onto another college course after they finish this one to build up a broader range of qualifications and work experience rather than go to university.

But the completion rate for a Level 6 apprenticeship (undergrad equivalent) is 65%. Equivalent uni completion rate is 85% I think, though lots of variation within that.

That matches what I've been seeing. While some of it is often a higher workload, I think part of the issue on the higher and degree apprenticeship side, IME, is the go-betweens, the training providers that employers are going through to handle the paperwork and most of the communication side, and it's another point of failure.

I know more than one young person who didn't complete their degree apprenticeship or cadetship because errors from the training providers that weren't communicated until the education provider or employer found out and told the student - some the error meant they couldn't complete in the timeline and were given no support on how to resolve, just 'we can do those bits you missed later'. Much like people complain about universities, some apprenticeship training providers take the money and do nothing.

The Luddites failed. The industrial revolution moderated by social evolution has been an amazing success in improving living conditions in the industrialized countries.

The Luddites protested against the lowering of wages, unsafe working practices including an increase in child labour, erosion of workers rights and autonomy, and reduced quality of products, along with being replaced in the workforce.

Many didn't experience improved living conditions, especially not those forced off the land and into the factories. Many of those improvement came from the social evolution of protesting against the very same things the Luddites did, some far more violently than the Luddites did. Industrialisation on its own didn't do that. The Luddites may have failed, but that doesn't mean they were entirely wrong.

@LoudWriter ,

‘Actually, now I'm writing it, maybe it is for the best- avoid any higher education or institution which might teach us about anything existential that will help us see how enslaved hypercapitalism is going to make us and instill us with cold dread...’

Do you have any idea what percentage of the population have the population have a cognitive ability to write a paragraph like that? My bet is 15% tops.

The reality is that, unless you are getting a bunch of 7-9s at GCSE, decent grades at A levels are highly unlikely. And, unless you are at least getting an A and a couple of Bs at A level, how unsuited you are to tertiary education.

I couldn’t agree more that if you genuinely love Fourier transformations in optics or carefully parsing historical documents and analysing them, then uni is for you. The average IQ of the population is 100. I would bet that you probably don’t have any friends with an IQ of below 110.

For a lot of people uni is a con. Unless you can access a degree at a really good uni or a vocational qualification (say nursing), then there is no point in tertiary education.
Other countries do things a lot better than us by giving academic education to the few who can access it and good quality vocational education to the majority who cannot.

If they enjoyed themselves, obtained their degrees and made lots of friends it is categorically not a waste of time. All we have in life is time and how we spend it. If we spend it happily, we have spent it well.

@SparkleHorse82 That is the right way of looking at it.

@Southwestten ,

** ‘That is the right way of looking at it.’

That’s a crazy way of looking at it! A university isn’t a glorified holiday camp.

Young people will, hopefully, enjoy themselves, make friends and have a good time in a workplace too. And they won’t have to pay for it with years of loan repayments.

A university is (or should be) a place of study at a higher education at a level well beyond A levels. The social aspect of it is great, but secondary to the study.

The fact that so many are encouraged to go to university stops us being able to properly support those that really deserve it but struggle to pay and are frightened of a big debt. I still think that the days of means tested grants should return, but that will never happen with 40+% of the population going to uni.

That’s a crazy way of looking at it! A university isn’t a glorified holiday camp.

I agree, but I’d originally said that my dcs’ time at university was a waste of time and money but they enjoyed themselves and made friends, and sparklyhorse said in that case it wasn’t a waste of time and money.
It made me think that maybe it’s better to look at positives rather than negatives.

As I have already pointed out, they and their clinical and social care colleagues have needed a degree equivalent professional qualifcation and membership of a professional oversight register for many years. Nurses are the oldest regulated profession, their examination based registration and professional oversight register started in the 1920's! Compulsory State registration for nurses began in 1943. Over time scope of practice has widened for all health and social care staff.

When considering the lifetime earning minus debt against non graduate lifetime earning we really need to take off the recognised degrees that lead to high earning. Nobody is saying doing medicine or other recognised career entry degrees is not beneficial and always has been and always will. The discussion is really about young adults doing those other degrees and there being very little value added to their career progression and earning capacity. The interest on the loans is significant and if you really are going to benefit from your degree earning wise, then you're going to be paying it back for 30 years.
If we had real alternatives and better quality control of the 'mass' degree output, it might be a start.

30 years? Not necessarily - as an example a graduate on a £75k salary would pay it off in 18 years (plan 5).

It’s a conveyor belt. Since Blair decided that more than half of children should go to university in an economy where fewer than a quarter of jobs prefer graduates, we’ve seen riding student debt, graduates entering non-graduate professions and the demise of entry level jobs for 16-20 year olds wishing to start their career in a profession that offers progression. Many apprenticeships have been killed by the cost of public liability insurance, a high minimum wage and increased employee NI.

My 19 year old went travelling instead then returned and got a job where he’s working alongside graduates who are 4 years older than him and being paid exactly the same.

He’s the first in our family to have zero interest in university. He has a full life with lots of friends and is already paying a chunk into his pension each month, which will really help later on.

True. I don’t think apprenticeships should have to pay minimum wage and employer NI. Our electrician has had 2 a year for 30 years. He said with increased paperwork from the college, minimum wage, increase NI and £1,500 public liability insurance per apprentice, he was stopping at the end if last academic year. It was costing him a fortune and when he first takes them on they can’t do anything useful. It’s all teaching. Add in the rising cost of living and he can’t afford to any more.

I dont gave a degree. I earn more than my dh who does.

But you know what, he does a more interesting job and got to spend 3 years indulging his interest in his stem subject, and playing sport. That has its own value. He has patents in his name. I think its all very well saying he could if earned more being a plumber so its a waste, But he didnt want to be a plumber he wanted to do his career. Plumbers are great. Im glad other people want to be then. But ither jobs have value too..

Because other options are very limited.

Depending on earnings the cost of paying back for most will be less than a gym membership monthly (depending on which plan etc). I have a large student debt and I certainly don't lose sleep over it (I have never had much money, don't have much money now, will probably never have much money). I wasn't arguing that students won't become components of a consumer economy- that's inevitable anyway. I was more trying to point out that for many young people, going to University remains a formative experience for many many reasons which have nothing to do with money.

18.6 percent of students accepted at Leeds Metropolitan University don't finish their degree. They are the worst, but others are way above 1 in 10. I actually did my degree at Leeds Met and only one person left our course but it was a vocational course in Environmental Health with a pretty much guaranteed job at the end. So people stay on the correct courses.
Interesting is that drop out rates peaked around 2017 when percentage going to uni also peaked. It would indicate that there are definitely people at university who shouldn't be there and can't manage it or don't want to manage it. We need to offer them alternatives in developing skills and knowledge.

Totally agree with this.
We lose some of the people with the best empathic skills and common sense in these jobs because they are not good at academic studies.
I think it's a scandal that unemployment figures have been massaged for decades now by funnelling young people into FE to hide the fact that entry level jobs for school leavers have become so scarce.