AIBU to think missing five lessons as a detention seems counterproductive?

That would be unusual for them to be taught individually in isolation rather than just being given work to do independently

I completely agree with you OP, and can't understand why people are so determined to misunderstand and pontificate, rather than engaging with the point that you are making. Of course there would be better ways to deal with bad behaviour, and of course, for many children who misbehave, the absolute worst thing you could do is punish them by having them miss more lessons (which they already hate because they are scared and insecure).

I would expect that the attitudes on here are exactly like the response you would get from the school if you tried to talk to them about it.

It's a deeply flawed system; schools lack the resources and the flexibility of thought to be able to help each child learn in the best way-so they use punishments like this which are clearly gooing to be destructive for many kids.

It sounds to me that he is choosing to misbehave for this one teacher, and more worryingly, he seems to believe that he will get away with it at home by trivialising what he has done and claiming some sort of " personality clash" with the teacher.
He also sounds as if he is trying to get you on his side against the school - a very common ploy in teenagers.
Have you actually asked the school what has provoked 5 periods of isolation?
If it's your son who is saying " it was for making a silly noise" , quite frankly I wouldn't believe him. This sounds like a punishment given for repeatedly poor behaviour or defiance/ rudeness to a member of staff.
I would find out exactly what had been going on and how this isolation was triggered, getting my information from a reliable school source.
Armed with all the facts, I would then have a talk with him about acting more maturely. He must know that his behaviour is wrong because he does behave well elsewhere.
If your son realises that you are going to get all the accurate information and back the school, then that alone might make a difference.

I agree with this completely. During GCSE years your kids disruption could leave others in the class not getting the grades they need for college courses, which inturn means they won't get the grades to take their chosen degree. By GCSE years your kid shouldn't be disrupting classes because it severely impacts every other student, they should know better, and quite frankly how dare he. Your son needs to get a hold of this now because it certainly won't be tolerated at college.

What is this “unmet needs” malarkey, op?
Which of your ds’s needs are not being met that forces him to dick around in classes he doesn’t like?
You’ve also claimed he might be so anxious about falling behind that he’d be reluctant to return to school at all.
So many ridiculous excuses for his consistently poor behaviour, and inability to accept the consequences.

I think schools are staring to take the view that if your GCSE age kid doesn’t want to learn and wants to disrupt others’ learning, then they miss out and the others continue learning. It’s a great policy as the issue is one disruptive kid can jeopardise the education of 30 others. Now he will think twice before behaving in a way that leads to exclusion! Parents shouldn’t make excuses for behaviour as you are here.

Not every lesson has a PowerPoint.
Perhaps the lesson plan is that the teacher explains or demonstrates something (freehand on the whiteboard, from memory and using the teacher's skill), then there is a whole-class Q&A, then some group or pair work.
That cannot be replicated for one student in isolation / internal exclusion.
And it is not reasonable to expect teachers to prepare a written version of every lesson adapted to single-student-use, just in case someone is in isolation.

I'm a former secondary teacher. No, isolation doesn't work for repeat offenders but there are no manageable alternatives in an overloaded system stretched to breaking point and what it does provide is respite. When it happens as a one-off to a student who isn't habitually disruptive, it can be a bit of a shock that actually does reset them and they decide to avoid it again. The crucial thing which I think you haven't been told, OP, (and your son definitely won't tell you this!) is that isolation comes after several opportunities for a student to change their behaviour. Unless something extreme like bringing in a knife or physically attacking someone, no one would go straight to isolation.

So your son got warnings in the lesson. He will have climbed a ladder of consequences, which should have been conveyed to him clearly at every point: stop making those noises or you will be at one strike/one demerit/first negative - whatever the phrasing is. Ok, you've chosen to continue. If you carry on, you will be at two strikes. Usually it goes to four, and on the fourth you are removed from the lesson and given a detention - lunchtime or after school. If you skip the detention or are disruptive in detention, it escalates to isolation.

So your son will not have simply made a silly noise and been slapped with a day in isolation. He will have made a number of poor choices over a stretch of time to get there.

The 'teacher doesn't like me' excuse really makes me roll my eyes. The teacher probably does not like your son's behaviour. Why would they? If his 'silly noises' were in fact the sex noises some boys make in lessons then it is intimidating and deeply unpleasant behaviour that needs stamping out very firmly - and I'm sorry, but I cannot accept 'unmet needs' meaning that students just can't help sexually harassing staff and students in this way.

Yes, there is a tsunami of unmet needs, I agree, and no possible way for state schools to meet them. There are also quite a lot of kids who mess around and don't like it when their behaviour has consequences.

After a long career of getting outstanding results from my classes and working so hard in a broken system, I got out of education altogether and sent my kids private when it came to secondary. They never heard sex noises in lessons, never witnessed any violence, and as far as I know, there was no isolation room at all and no need for one. So not all schools use the system, because some schools have the resources to manage and are selective so never have to deal with the most challenging students in the first place. In state schools, I don't see what else they can do.

I'm a primary teacher, OP. I also understand the point you're making and I'm obviously not an expert in secondary but have had two childen go through it so...

Schools are required to have a whole school behaviour policy. The students are aware of it and know the consequences. Schools with the best behaviour apply the policy consistently and predictably to enable students of all ages to make choices around their behaviour.

eg your son knew this would be the outcome of continued poor behaviour but still chose to continue because he thinks the teacher doesn't like him. He was deliberately preventing them from doing their job and preventing the other childen from learning.

The behaviour policy will have an escalation of consequences starting with multiple verbal warnings and whole day internal exclusions (which is what isolation actually is) aren't applied (unless the school is very strict) for minor or isolated behavioural incidents. They are for consistent patterns of poor behaviour, disrespect and disruption to learning.

The only possible mechanism for change is that he will be scared to miss his subjects.

Yes, that would be the desired outcome to not spending the day with his peers/friends and missing engagement in the lessons he enjoys with teachers he likes.

Missing one day of face to face learning won't have a huge impact on his learning. No more than a day off ill would be. And a day in isolation will usually mean missing breaktime and lunchtime too and the students will eat in isolation. They will have a break but remain in isolation.

For kids that aren’t academic or aren’t encouraged to be, they won’t care and it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy won’t it?*

Students aren't sat twiddling their thumbs for the day and are, as far as I understand, required to complete the/some work but away from the rest of the class.

The sanction can't be that he misses the next 5 of the lesson he messes around in because that would be rewarding his behaviour if he doesn't want to be in those lessons anyway. Schools would be in chaos if students realised they could get out of a specific subject for almost an entire half term by messing around in it!

I understand your point OP but unfortunately things can't always be tailored exactly to each pupil. The behaviour policy will state that a second offence (or repeated bad behaviour in the same lesson) will result in a days isolation. They won't be checking which lessons he's disruptive in, they just know he's been disruptive therefore they follow the behaviour policy.

Maybe the teacher really doesn't like him, we all remember teachers like that. But of course that's going to happen all through life in the workplace and this is how he needs to learn to deal with it, get his head down and just work. Hopefully this will be the wake up call he needs.

It's practically impossible to exclude someone. The child who spends most time in Intex( real name when they give up with Reflection Room) at DS' school has done some absolutely unbelievable things. His home life is too chaotic to permanently exclude him. It's just child wrangling at this point. Yr 10 and getting worse. No idea what the solution is in these cases. He can't be the only one.

Isn’t the punishment the fact they then have to catch up in their own time? That’s probably where the punishment takes effect. And I guess it’s quite clever as it a punishment that doesn’t inconvenience anyone else, ie teachers, in having to supervise after school detentions.

Could be quite useful in getting parents invested in making their children behave too as it’s something parents don’t want - kids missing lessons. And could mean parents have to help catch them up.

Yes we had the same concerns around sleep, it’s fast release, about 5mg, we’ve sometimes used it when he’s forgotten his main tablet, we have it on hand for things like long school days/homework but haven’t actually needed too much. Speak to your prescriber, good luck!

Well it sounds like isolation rather than detention. Detentions are almost always after school or during lunch whereas isolation runs for the full day and sometimes more if the child has done something particularly awful. Obviously they’ll also exclude if it’s something terrible. My DC’s school work with the other academy in the trust and exchange poorly behaved students for a few days / weeks sometimes too. Takes them away from their friends and the environment for a bit to hopefully reset.

They're supposed to still work in isolation, not sit for hours staring at a wall. Not sure what other magic solution you want them to come up with. Your son was a twat so he’s being punished.

If he is only taken out of the class he disrupted them thats a treat for him. Missing the other lessons is where the punishment lies. Hopefully it will make him think twice next time

This is isolation, not detention. They are doing lesson work in isolation.

Sounds appropriate. Your DS doesn’t want to learn and messes around preventing others from learning. Remove him from the class to let others learn.
What punishment have you as parents applied?

This sounds like the step after detention but before exclusion. Ask the school to clarify their policy.

Is this your understanding from your son? Whatever he needs to behave!

Your kid is really annoying and disrupting the rest of the class. Tell him to stop being a dick and get on with his work. He really does have to take responsibility for his own learning. He knows he’s going to get removed from classes for pissing about but he chooses to do it anyway. Better one disrupting person misses the learning opportunity than the 29 others who might actually want decent grades but can’t focus because some twat thinks he’s Joe Pasquale.

You would need context. Has he missed a set detention? Did he say he couldn’t do after school detention (common attempt to avoid them), was the behaviour a bit worse, is he a repeat offender and previous less severe ones haven’t worked?

What you’re describing is usually called isolation or reflection room or internal exclusion/suspension and not normally for low level or first offence. However, some academies are over using punitive measures and you might need to look at behaviour policy on school website and ask around a bit to see if your school is of the type that overuses isolation days.

Probably don’t heed your son’s protestations about other people “getting away with it” because boys often don’t that whole miscarriage of justice thing and the person perceived as “getting away with it” may have mitigating circumstances.

I was a head of year for a long time and if I typed “adamant” into my email search, literally thousands would come up, boys are adamant that it wasn’t them, that the teacher picked on them and I could ask everyone else in the class and they would confirm this.

My own son did same and from an early age I stood by the school and once he twigged that he toed the line.

A day out of lessons is a big thing and should be used as such. There are schools that overuse it and it is counterproductive if it happens a lot.

I would get him to serve his time on this occasion, send him with a ton of work, pens and equipment and a reading book, back it with a time limited home punishment, like no gadgets for an evening.

With luck, you’ll nip any recidivism in the bud but if not you’ll have to contact school and ask a few more questions. I hope this helps.

Not sure the OP will be back but as at least one other parent has joined to say they are in a similar position, I’ll add to the school perspective posts - ex teacher who has had both pastoral and subject head roles in a large comprehensive with challenging behaviour, through several new head teachers over the years.

It’s September and you have a new or relatively new management team in the school. They will have been set certain targets to prove their worth, by an academy trust or by the governors, depending on the school. One of those targets may have specifically been to improve discipline because it’s leading to staff turnover (teachers leaving because they actually want to teach and instead have to teach teenagers how to sit politely) or poor exam results (students unable to focus or access the material because their peers won’t sit politely). September is when you stamp your attitude of ‘start as you mean to go on’ and it’s quite normal for them to come in with quite a strict response to make a change. If the old system was an after school detention or whatever else, that was deemed as unsuccessful or they wouldn’t have this target to meet, so they step up. In school sanctions during school hours are the school’s most controllable option. Isolation is particularly useful because it can break up groups of students who add up to a large problem. It likely won’t have been a singular incidence of one child making one silly noise; it will have been a few each making a silly noise that can quickly derail a class, or if it is one single student it will have been a combination of not getting on with the work, being sarcastic, making it difficult to teach the class including making a noise.

Yes, it can make sense to remove a student from the lessons where they are not in trouble. Unless your child is very invested in extra curriculars there, school does not have an equivalent of no TV/videogames/pudding/phone for bad behaviour. They can only deal with what they have in the school day, and in KS4, they will be expecting students to take some responsibility for their learning, so removing them from one day of lessons is the direct message of you need to stop looking for excuses and behave appropriately. It is September so they may be stricter to jump to this than perhaps at other times of the year, hoping the message goes through and that’s the end of it.

(The child who has supposedly spent the month in isolation is a different situation and I can theorise why that has happened but it is not at all relevant to a student who has had the shock of one unexpected trip to the isolation room.)

Where the school may be confusing or disappointing here is in communication, and I can see both sides here. The school may have been very clear to the student, because a Y11 student does need to take most of the responsibility for themselves, and then the student may have not communicated that full conversation at home because who comes home and tattles on themselves to their parents? Any time I would speak to a child like that, I would assume parents would hear less than 10% of the message, often 0%. So then school are making a choice to leave the communication at that or to add the extra step of contacting home. Working in different schools you quickly get a feel for how different that task can be. I’ve taught where nearly every single communication home had a decently prompt response, but most schools that had not been the experience and the communication home varied from not being acknowledged to being sworn at repeatedly or threatened with violence. And it takes time to write or call home so if it’s a school like that, then teachers might focus more on direct communication to the student. You can, however, always make it known to school that you are a supportive parent on their side so would appreciate regular updates of your child’s behaviour if anything else should be unacceptable. Many parents see the school as the enemy, and it is easier to communicate with those who make it clear school and parents are on the same team.

Specifically the ‘teacher doesn’t like me’ attitude is the most telling. I’ve heard it from
so many children. Countless children! Teachers don’t like them for reasons such as… teacher can see they are capable of more and has asked them to look at their work again, teacher expects them to be on time and sit in their assigned seat, teacher expects them to turn in their homework by the due date, teacher expects them to sit politely, teacher expects them to wear their uniform properly without being told every lesson, teacher expects them to get on with their work without complaint. It’s the basic stuff and it’s not new. Not every kid is going to love every teacher and that’s life. But almost always ‘the teacher doesn’t like me’ translates to ‘I can’t be bothered to meet basic expectations for that class’. Isolation is the quick correction to say oi, sort yourself out mate, and get back into lessons and meet those basic expectations across the board. (Yes, very occasionally ‘the teacher doesn’t like me’ translates to ‘I’m in a class I cannot follow and I don’t know how to ask for help’ but that is the exception rather than the rule, and it is very rare that there is a single subject a student can’t access when the others are fine, and 9 times out of 10 if it was a single subject they couldn’t access, it would be a foreign language.)

Next steps: in this instance, support the school and show the child they need to take responsibility for their actions. Communicate with school that you are disappointed in child’s behaviour and expect more and would appreciate quick comms for any further issues with behaviour. Make it clear to child that they need to get on track in all their lessons, even if they don’t love the teacher or the subject. Set a positive target of something you know will motivate the child if they make it to some set date with no further problems at school. Hope child gets the message and that’s the end of it.

Rather than concern yourself with the policy, I think you should concentrate on your DS. He and his classmates are only eight months away from taking their exams and teaching time is much less due to school holidays. Every day, every lesson counts. You need to make it clear to him that he never behaves like this again. When I was talking to a young relative the same age who had a bit of a wobble behaviour-wise after the death of a parent, I explained the teacher was under pressure too. Pressure to deliver the curriculum, scrutiny of attainment etc. The teacher didn’t have time to deal with any messing around.

DS needs to apologise and I suggest he contacts the relevant teachers and asks how best to catch up on any work he has missed. You then need to make sure he has caught up this weekend.

Support the school.

Point out to your child that he is choosing to disrupt the class. His choices, his consequences.

Tell him he will come up against people who he thinks don’t like him in many areas of his life, he needs to learn to deal with this.I suggest he keeps his head down, his mouth closed, his eyes from rolling and does the work. It’s 40 minutes a week.

Stop hinting that missing one lesson will cause him to be more disruptive/ that he might have hidden needs that are causing the disruption / that he is being picked on. Accept that your child has chosen to behave badly and needs to accept the punishment and learn from it.

Tell him that he will not fail in life because he has missed a days lessons in class, but that his continued disruption could well affect the learning of the other students in the class who are unfortunate enough to have been timetabled with him for the rest of the year.

The problem is that some schools use isolation and suspensions far too freely, so that some children may be out of class as much as 50% of the time - and they also use rigid discipline policies in place of providing good teaching that engages pupils and prevents misbehaviour.

If that is the choice them make, they should make the effort to provide actual teaching in isolation, otherwise they are just storing up more problems. If giving worksheets to students was education, we wouldn't need teachers.