AIBU to think missing five lessons as a detention seems counterproductive?

We have a cue word which involves tracking the teacher as well as a few other expectations.

I offer looking at the whiteboard as an optional alternative to looking at me for those who find making direct visual contact harder. If they're looking that way, I know they're still listening and reponding which is the ultimate point.

@Justanotherteacher@clary
I thought exactly the same. I’d assumed the teacher deliberately asked a child who was messing around what the answer was to something she’d literally just told the class type of scenario. It was the first thing I asked DD, but she said she’d have understood why he’d been in trouble if that was the case. This teacher will be teaching top set….DD is half hoping she didn’t do well in the test this week.

The schools in this area have these zero tolerance behavioural systems. It seems abnormal as fuck to me, but it’s normal here.

Tracking the speaker
”Tracking the speaker means watching the speaker with your eyes, following the speaker as they move around the room. “

https://blog.kippnj.org/2014/04/02/three-easy-steps-to-teach-tracking-the-speaker/ this has info all about it, including classroom exercises to help children learn how to track the speaker.

Ah I see @Phineyj yes I agree, the students should be listening. And if not (presumably evidenced by them talking over me) then yes a warning is in order.

Tracking the speaker just means listening to the person talking (teacher, or student answering a question).

I wouldn't actually use that term but I do expect students to listen to me/not to talk while their peers are asking or answering a question or presenting. It's only polite!

Ye @Spiderinhere is it a situation as described by @Justanotherteacher – where it does seem reasonable for the teacher to point out that the student should know the answer and as they didn't, had they really been listening and taking part?

Or is it: Teacher: “What is the German word for hot air balloon [a word we have never discussed nor come across]?” Student: [puts hand up and waits to be asked] “Is it Schadenfreude?” Teacher: “No of course not, it's Heißluftballon, that's a negative mark for you for not knowing.” ?

If the latter then I do find it a bit hard to believe. The other things you mention sound excessive too (tracking the speaker? wtaf is that?). Is there another school your DC could go to? What school is it they are at? I promise you (based on quite a lot of experience in a range of schools) that those rules are not the norm.

Imagine a one word answer e.g. homeostasis. I’ve said it and the class have just chorused it together a couple of times, written it on a mini whiteboard while we spell it out together and then again on their own, chorused it again and finally turned and said it to their partner and listened to it back twice. If, immediately after that, I cold call a pupil (avoiding those who have a reasonable adjustment to not be cold called), I would expect them to give the answer. If they can’t make a decent attempt, especially as I’d have told them the question was coming to one of them before we started, then they haven’t been paying attention for the last 2 minutes and get a warning.

That’s not representative of most schools 😬
If your dd is telling the truth, why don’t you move her?

@kilkennycatsI thought so too. It is also just one of many things I’m discovering that seem wrong. It seems to be one teacher who is particularly bad (or good depending on your perspective) for this. After her first lesson in this subject, DD came home telling me how bad she’d felt for the kids who had got into trouble for getting questions wrong. She told me about the posters on making mistakes she could see at the same time. She told me how school said they’d allow for some settling in time, but then described how some teachers had totally humiliated children. She could see the discrepancies, a two year old could. I asked her how she felt engaging in lessons and she said she’d continue and just hope she got the questions right. Sometimes it’s consequence points, sometimes it’s a telling off. It can be practically anything that gets a telling off or put into the not completing work or disruptive behaviour boxes though really, getting a tissue from a bag, not sitting straight enough, not having control over whether an item the teacher has asked kids to buy arrives in time, kids having the type of ballpoint pen she doesn’t like (serious).

I think it’s harder for teachers to SA now thankfully, but it’s much easier for abusive teachers to thrive in certain schools now. Some schools have such a tightrope to walk to avoid getting a sanction, that there’s not much further a teacher abusing their power needs to go. It’s not enough to do your work, be on time, be respectful anymore. It’s not even enough to do those and wear your socks at the right height, have the right shade of hair bobble, drag around equipment you don’t need, leak through your sanpro, not have time to eat, try to concentrate on the lesson whilst your body is screaming that you need a wee and your mind is telling you to track the speaker and sit up straight, sit in a blazer in a hot classroom, pretend not to see a friend in the silent playground line up line next to you in case one of you mouths hello, spend god knows how much cumulative time over the year having uniform and equipment checks and it’s just really really sad. I can see why some kids eventually feel that they’re going to get into trouble whatever they do, so they may as well be hung for a sheep than a lamb.

OP’s son was genuinely disruptive and should face a consequence, but I completely agree with OP that isolation is the wrong one.

When a child is getting into trouble or disengaging in a particular lesson, but managing in the others, it’s a bit of a red flag and the reasons behind it really need to be looked at.

Yeh I never applied any kind of sanction for a child answering a question wrongly. Neither did nor does any other teacher I knew or know.

Of course making mistakes is part of learning. Often someone's incorrect answer will flag up a misunderstanding that is widespread across the class and shows the teacher that they need togo over x or y aspect again. It can be very helpful.

Seriously a child in a school you know personally (not one you have "heard of" - IMO there is often a lot of third-hand misinformation on threads like this) has been sent to isolation or given a detention for getting an answer wrong?

Sanctions are for stuff like not stopping talking after being asked multiple times to stop, shouting out, throwing things, damaging things, using racist/sexist/homophobic/anti semitic language, not doing any work at all... not for making a mistake about the subject! That's crazy!!

What sanctions are applied when a child gives a wrong answer in class? That sounds quite unusual.

“How many other jobs are there where you literally cannot afford to make mistakes when you’re still learning!?”

It’s wrong, but it happens in my DC’s school. There are posters on the wall about how mistakes are part of learning and everybody makes them. How demoralising, hypocritical and frankly insane is it to have signs like that around, whilst in reality sanctions are applied when a child answers a question wrong in class? How quickly do you think a child would be moved to isolation if they dared to challenge this?

@Phineyj i was thinking more about this. The term “low level disruption” really doesn’t convey how damaging that sort of behaviour is. It’s the sort of thing that could routinely eat up a third of class time (“Miss I haven’t got a pen” “miss what page is it?” “Miss my tongue hurts”) and the constant interruptions are soul destroying. You can’t do “interesting” lessons with people who won’t listen, will look for ways to disrupt it and who have no interest in learning what you want to teach them.

As an ECT 20 years ago, I tried to use some of the fantastic ideas I learned on the PGCE and was dismayed to discover that (a) they didn’t care to be inspired; and (b) if I made a single mistake, it would undermine me for months. How many other jobs are there where you literally cannot afford to make mistakes when you’re still learning!?

Yes, I had a GCSE class last year with four hard core misbehavers and four who were easily led (boys). Plus one under social services and one who made a good attempt at spending year 11 in the toilet (girls).

I decided I did not want to teach KS4 ever again and have taken myself off to a sixth form.

I'm a subject expert with 15 years of experience and a decent behaviour manager but I'm also middle aged and female and life's just too short to expend so much energy on teens who don't listen, don't work, and can't get on with other teens.

Honestly, very little. You only need a few (3-4) students in a class to ruin any lesson that isn’t rigidly structured (or any lesson full stop) if the norm of good behaviour isn’t enforced with 100% consistency across the school. And there are some kids who won’t cooperate whatever you do, more so if you’re female.

I’ve worked in schools and I’ve experienced it first hand. Unfortunately. And it’s not improved over the past 20 years since I qualified.

Absolutely this.

When we excuse poor behaviour by "the teacher not being engaging enough" we end up with entertainment and not learning.

I can assure you that you can teach a really great lesson and some students will still mess about.

It takes two to tango!

The question is, really, how much of this is down to poor teaching? Too many schools rely on keeping children in line through rigid discipline systems that focus on the superficial, e.g. having the right uniform and equipment, because that's easy to enforce. What they don't seem to try to achieve is providing teaching that engages children so that they don't play up. I can certainly think of teachers I had who could make a room of kids sit down and behave just by appearing in the doorway, whilst others struggled all the time.

@AroundTheWorldAround how are things now?

Little shits is subjective some are put there because their parents didn't think correct uniform is as important as "making a stand" my son nearly ended up in isolation for fighting fortunately there was a camera that showed he got attacked didn't even fight back but first response from the school was screaming they were going into isolation and might be suspended so I would be wary about judging everyone

My personal thoughts are if they are regularly ending up in isolation they are more in need of education and should be given more work to complete because they clearly don't make good choices

But the whole point is that this isn't what's happening to OP's son. Your son enjoyed having a day off school so it wasn't an effective deterrent. OP's son will spend a boring day at school so hopefully that will stop him misbehaving next time.

They should get work given to them. Sometimes it's logistically tricky bc the message (as a PP noted) doesn't get through in time. As a general rule IME (I would always send at the very least a text book and some instructions of what to do) the YP do not do the work set anyway. Again as PP noted when their DC finished the work set and the person in charge said that had never happened. I always lived in hope tho.

I think it's a ridiculous idea and agree with you.

Why would they not get work given to them that is actually relevant to the classes they are missing?! I understand isolation, I do not understand not doing their jobs and teaching them the curriculum. Better to be at home and actually be able to do the lessons they need to pass.

At my sons's school they are kept in at lunch times/breaks/free periods. It's a high achieving school and kids don't like missing out on their free time, so that definitely helps more.

If they are disrupting the full class then as I said, isolation with the class work or staying at home to do the class work.

My DC is an “innocent” but is capable of seeing when a punishment seems counterintuitive.