If you were previously on the fence about Lucy Letby’s guilt, have the Thirlwall findings swayed you either way?

It’s all a mess and I in all honesty I hope she’s guilty AND she confesses at some point in the near future so we can draw a line under it. I don’t think that will ever happen, though.

Also, I wish the people like the poster who “had a bad feeling about a blonde nurse in 2018” would stop talking shite. Whenever I have a “bad feeling”, it’s usually something I ate. Don’t bring us into your delusion that you possess psychic powers.

Equally that Judith Moretz article about “looking into her soul” is more unwelcome cosmic bullshit.

I don’t know what I think, but the more questions that arise, the more I think her conviction is unsafe and the more time that passes, the more confident I become in that view.

She does, however, seem to be a very unimpressive nurse and an unremarkable woman. She strikes me as meek, lonely, immature, and not very bright.

But being an oddball doesn’t make her a murderer.

I also have personal experience of doctors and medics from my personal life, and it’s a profession that attracts an awful lot of arrogant sociopaths.

I don’t understand why there’s so much noise about completely irrelevant things about her - looking up the families on Facebook just makes her nosey and slightly parasocial. Having teddies and a Mrs Doubtfire DVD and two cats - why do we need to know this?

Nor do I understand her motive. What would she get out of these murders? Do murderers usually have pets they love as much as Letby appeared to love her cats? Wouldn’t you expect a baby killer to also be an animal abuser?

But then what the fuck is she doing hovering around cots? Why did the relatively healthy babies die? Why was she around them when she shouldn’t have been? Part of me thinks it’s all because she wanted to be a nurse for sick babies ever since she was a child, and she didn’t view this as a job in the same way any other well-adjusted adult would have.

@Frequency yeah we all know that, I'm responding to the claim there were all these other deaths since she was removed.

She was guilty; separately, she was heavily criticized for shouting about her innocence. As was Colin Norris. Shouting about your innocence therefore doesn't prove you are innocent or stop people from thinking you are guilty.

Well, hovering around cots was her job, in an intensive care unit! There is one baby she was accused of being around when she shouldn't have been, but that is when he was already dying. She was with four babies because she was in charge of them, went to help with one other after collapse, was nursing abother baby in the same small room for the sixth, and it is really not clear because every witness statement varies who was where when for the seventh.

Whether the babies were really relatively healthy and receiving the care they needed is the million dollar question. The expert panel which has looked at the deaths since the trial concluded that the unit struggled to identify children's conditions and deal with them appropriately. The unit had recently taken on higher numbers of seriously ill children and was understaffed and underskilled.

Rather more when you count the babies transfered out who died at other hospitals. It's worth remembering that four of the children Lucy Letby is accused of killing would have been transferred out if the service had arrived in time. It was improved from 2016. All six of the babies who died in their first week of life would have been transferred elsewhere at birth if planning failed and they were born at Chester. The seventh, who died later, would be very unlikely to be left there awaiting transfer for testing for a week as she was in 2015.

The Telegraph article includes collapses at Chester followed by death after transfer elsewhere. These deaths would be officially counted as Chester's.

To be fair I think people can get spooked and convince themselves of things - not necessarily lying. But I do think retrospective reconstruction of events plays a big part in this mess

The babies she murdered were all in the downgraded category.

Hovering around a cot while a baby’s breathing tube is removed… hovering around a cot when a baby’s bleeding…

Is this true? How do we know?

It’s in the Thirlwall report.

I think after being repeatedly accused of murder and deliberate harm, arrested, held in jail and having to give up your career, home and pets most of us would come across as an oddball.

I am always left a bit baffled on these threads as irrespective of her guilt or innocence people seem to want to cast a judgement on her character, whether that is that she is a cold woman, lacking in empathy, or a troubled one (and she is often diagnosed with autism for some reason.)

She seemed perfectly normal to me, up until the point she ran into difficulties at work, and anyone who has had a sustained campaign of bullying against them at work will know it profoundly affects you. I genuinely don’t know what people are seeing.

Can you elaborate further on if there was anything that particular made you feel uncomfortable.
I recall reading g a thread on here a few years ago qbout people describing having q visceral reaction to individuals one I more clear recall was someone who was a young probation officer experienced a strong reaction when she mistakenly walked into a room where a colleague was sitting with an inmate. It was after she learnt the inmate was more Hindley.
The theme of the thread was qbout psychopaths. It appeared to demonstrate that we can usually detect danger, as in all other animals. Its explained more through q trauma lens in the gift of fear. With regards how our brains process situations so interesting. As q new mum your instincts were likely to have been more heightened possibly.

Wasn't that used as strong evidence against her?

Yes exactly. Not many people understanding what’s at stake could act in a way those just going through everyday life do.

If she didn’t do it and knows she’s facing Cat A restrictions for life, it’s going to prompt severe anxiety which will look different in a variety of ways.

Idk either way but her behaviour is not relevant. Look at Lindy Chamberlain who was similarly accused of off behaviour.

It hasn't been said on here, but she was (possibly still is) on heavy medication because of this.

Those that have taken similar know how it effects emotions etc.

if the PP had her baby in 2018 it was not Letby she saw.

Letby was arrested in early July 2018. Prior to this she was on clerical duties at the hospital. Following her arrest she was suspended on full pay from the hospital. So depending on when the PPs baby was born (and that poster has an 18 year old according to a previous thread so massive pinch of salt) Letby wasn’t anywhere near the hospital.

Besides, I have no wish to be darkly flippant about a serious topic but whenever there’s a ‘have you met a celebrity thread’ here the number of posters who met Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris and ‘just knew’ something was very wrong is quite remarkable. We see things differently through the lens of distance.

Definitely.

What should an intensive care nurse do in these circumstances?

In the first case, observe and call for help. This what she did.

In the second case, we are talking about blood around the mouth, from oral or gastric bleeding. Calling the doctor to see the blood and examine the child is again, what she did.

These were two extremely small premature neonates. You don't pick them up or conduct your own examination. You avoid touching and stressing them where possible. You can't see as a nurse whether a tube has dislodged internally or do anything to fix that. Remember that the doctors called to these two children had no criticism of Lucy Letby's conduct at the time - no nursing failure or problem identified, never mind deliberate harm. She was doing her job.

No, at most one of them was (highly doubtful). Six of the babies were twins, triplets and / or born following obstetric complications (baby D). None of these would have been born in the downgraded unit.

The unit stopped admitting multiples and babies from complex pregnancies because it had only one ICU cot for emergencies, for use before transfer out. Gestational age wasn't the only criterion.

Where? I have read most of it and haven't seen that yet. There is no way a unit without an ICU would schedule delivery of premature triplets (with one emergency ICU cot!), and the other children were all predictably in ICU in the first week of life before there was any question of an attack - and Chester now offered only emergency temporary ICU before transfer out.

Only question is whether Baby I might have been transferred back there after being born and treated elsewhere, which given her history of sudden deteriorations (also on occasions when Lucy Letby was not around or was at a different hospital, acknowledged by both sides at trial) is immensely unlikely.

Yes, and that poster has confirmed it was 2018.

The Thirlwall Inquiry proceeded on the assumption the conviction was correct, it wasn’t tasked with assessing Letby’s guilt. So there’s no reason why its findings would sway anyone either way on whether they believe Letby is innocent or guilty.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying Letby is innocent. But the evidence for trial was cherry picked (rotas where she wasn’t shift but children died were left out of evidence, insulin was used twice and on one of those occasions it was alleged she’d “primed” a bag to be delivered by a nurse on another shift to provide a plausible alibi, but there is no actual evidence of her spiking a bag like CCTV). The remaining evidence, whilst a large volume, was ultimately all circumstantial evidence. It was not sufficient, in my opinion, to prove beyond reasonable doubt (which is the criminal standard, as opposed to the balance of probabilities which is the civil standard) that she was guilty.

It is tragic for all the families involved, but I don’t think her trial proved her guilt beyond reasonable doubt. That isn’t the same as saying she’s innocent - she could have done a good job of covering her tracks. But our justice system requires a high standard for conviction which I don’t believe was met by the evidence.

What I would imagine is that the atmosphere on the ward was pretty awful in 2018 - police investigation then arrest of someone who was a colleague and friend to many of the nurses, suggestion that babies had been murdered, possible fear suspicions would be extended. Someone might certainly pick up on tension and reserve in those circumstances!

Or lying!