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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If you were previously on the fence about Lucy Letby’s guilt, have the Thirlwall findings swayed you either way?

411 replies

KwellsBells · 16/09/2026 14:53

I personally have always thought she is guilty, and even more so since the report findings were published.

YABU - still on the fence/ still believe she is innocent

YANBU - she’s guilty

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Soontobe60 · 18/09/2026 07:52

Frequency · 18/09/2026 00:36

The Thirwall enquiry didn't address any of my concerns around the evidence used to convict Letby, so it hasn't done anything to ease my concerns around the quality of the evidence used to convict Letby.

Overfeeding - Dewi himself has retracted this one.
Air down the NG tube - see above
Air embolism - diagnosed after Evans misinterpreted Lee and Tanswell's paper.
Insulin via feeding bags - an untested theory.
Firing an expert statistician.

I'm also deeply uncomfortable with this idea that someone's demeanour can be taken as evidence to sentence them to a whole-life term.

The purpose of the enquiry was not to challenge the conviction, it was to look at what went so catastrophically wrong in that particular NHS Trust that Letby was allowed to continue to murder and harm tiny babies without challenge.

TheFlandersPigeon · 18/09/2026 08:05

11AndCounting · 18/09/2026 04:02

In a way I hope she is guilty, because can you even begin to imagine the dystopian horror of being in her situation while innocent?
Same.

I'm in the relatively small group that thinks (a) she very likely committed the crimes of which she was convicted, but (b) her conviction was probably unsafe.

Or, to put it another way - I think she should be in prison but I also don't think she should be in prison 😅

I think there's quite a few people who think that or at least don't rule it out.

It bemuses me how many people don't separate out possible guilt and the eventual outcome of the CCRC application actually. We seem to have a cohort of posters who have a strong belief she's guilty as sin and on the basis of that keep assuring everyone she'll be in prison forever, all the appeals will fail... but the one doesn't necessarily mean the other! Sometimes legal systems fuck something up badly enough that a guilty person is found not guilty or their conviction is found unsafe.

Frequency · 18/09/2026 08:55

Soontobe60 · 18/09/2026 07:52

The purpose of the enquiry was not to challenge the conviction, it was to look at what went so catastrophically wrong in that particular NHS Trust that Letby was allowed to continue to murder and harm tiny babies without challenge.

I'm aware of that, but I was replying to what the OP asked. My main concern about the conviction has always been the quality of the medical evidence used to convict her.

In light of the huge and rising number of highly qualified medical professionals who share my concerns, the inquiry was a complete waste of £18m. The answer to "How was a murderer allowed to operate for so long without challenge?" could very well turn out to be "they weren't because there were no murders".

The inquiry should have been paused, or the scope widened. If it had looked at things like how a unit was allowed to keep operating after multiple outside agencies flagged serious concerns, we might have learned something; ditto if it had looked at any of the other concerns, like how the unit could continue operating with raw sewage dripping from the ceiling and absent consultants, we might have learned something, but to only look at why a murderer was allowed to continue operating when it is becoming increasingly uncertain that there were any murders is a waste of taxpayers' money.

LBFseBrom · 18/09/2026 09:00

No, that was more about the failings of the hospital than about her.

I have no idea whether or not Lucy Letby is guilty, only she knows, but there is a much doubt so hope investigations continue. It would be so wrong for someone to stay in prison for crimes they did not commit.

TheFlandersPigeon · 18/09/2026 10:01

Frequency · 18/09/2026 08:55

I'm aware of that, but I was replying to what the OP asked. My main concern about the conviction has always been the quality of the medical evidence used to convict her.

In light of the huge and rising number of highly qualified medical professionals who share my concerns, the inquiry was a complete waste of £18m. The answer to "How was a murderer allowed to operate for so long without challenge?" could very well turn out to be "they weren't because there were no murders".

The inquiry should have been paused, or the scope widened. If it had looked at things like how a unit was allowed to keep operating after multiple outside agencies flagged serious concerns, we might have learned something; ditto if it had looked at any of the other concerns, like how the unit could continue operating with raw sewage dripping from the ceiling and absent consultants, we might have learned something, but to only look at why a murderer was allowed to continue operating when it is becoming increasingly uncertain that there were any murders is a waste of taxpayers' money.

I did wonder if they were going to pause the enquiry when it came out about Ravi Jayaram's email not having been disclosed by the prosecution.

Lovemuesli · 18/09/2026 10:18

MalcolmTent · 17/09/2026 12:06

What evidence are you basing this on?

Not evidence, but human nature.

Gengha · 18/09/2026 10:59

Upyermonkey · 17/09/2026 21:59

Was her defence during court proceedings as poor as I recall reading?
Not the point of the thread I know, but I can’t see how a lay jury could understand the medical technicalities. There might be an argument for a knowledgeable jury for cases like these?

Yes, His Majesty’s Counsel are generally known for being incompetent. People who got their legal training from TikTok are much more adept at dealing with such serious matters.

Honestly do the baby murderer apologists even hear themselves

Oftenaddled · 18/09/2026 11:47

Gengha · 18/09/2026 10:59

Yes, His Majesty’s Counsel are generally known for being incompetent. People who got their legal training from TikTok are much more adept at dealing with such serious matters.

Honestly do the baby murderer apologists even hear themselves

More likely a failed strategy (to get much the expert evidence thrown out) in light of infelicitous circumstances (section of cases, RCPCH report, grievance etc excluded).

I suppose there is some mix of failed strategy and excluded or unknown information behind every miscarriage of justice.

Firefly1987 · 18/09/2026 19:43

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/09/2026 22:01

Incompetence? A rush to shoehorn in as much "bad" as could be found? Who knows. But it certainly doesn't inspire confidence in their competence or methodology given the gravity of the case, does it?

The problem with believing in her innocence is it has to mean absolutely everyone involved in this case was incompetent. The consultants, the police, the experts etc. and it just doesn't ring true. Then you've got Shoo Lee whose only reply to criticism of his work is "they misunderstood it" as if what he's writing about is just so difficult for these experts with decades of experience to understand 🙄

Firefly1987 · 18/09/2026 19:48

@Oftenaddled Yeah they just wouldn't bother to challenge the insulin evidence would they? They probably searched the whole country to find an endocrinologist who could say this wasn't exogenous insulin. But there wasn't one who could say that, because it was.

There is no way in hell they didn't want to challenge that-they just couldn't!

Advocodo · 18/09/2026 19:48

I originally thought LL may have been guilty but now I feel that the substandard care in the hospital means she is probably innocent. I have read the Thirlwell enquiry report yet.

TheFlandersPigeon · 18/09/2026 20:08

Firefly1987 · 18/09/2026 19:43

The problem with believing in her innocence is it has to mean absolutely everyone involved in this case was incompetent. The consultants, the police, the experts etc. and it just doesn't ring true. Then you've got Shoo Lee whose only reply to criticism of his work is "they misunderstood it" as if what he's writing about is just so difficult for these experts with decades of experience to understand 🙄

Either way at least one expert with decades of experience has misunderstood it though? Whether you think that's Shoo Lee or Dewi Evans, they can't both be right.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 18/09/2026 20:45

Firefly1987 · 18/09/2026 19:43

The problem with believing in her innocence is it has to mean absolutely everyone involved in this case was incompetent. The consultants, the police, the experts etc. and it just doesn't ring true. Then you've got Shoo Lee whose only reply to criticism of his work is "they misunderstood it" as if what he's writing about is just so difficult for these experts with decades of experience to understand 🙄

For the umpteenth time, as has been explained over and over on multiple threads, group think is a real thing that can infect investigations / institutions.

This case was built around circumstantial evidence initially provided by the consultants, none of whom raised concerns of murder until the number of deaths had risen to an unacceptable level in their opinion. Nobody went to the pathologists or the coroner in a timely fashion. When no concerns were raised by the pathologists, it was only after the grievance issue was resolved that the police were approached, and initially the police didn't think there was a case. Whatever the consultants said to them when they had a further meeting seemed to spark it all. One has to wonder, if their suspicions were so strong, and the safeguarding of vulnerable babies was so uppermost in their minds, why theu didn't act sooner, hospital management be damned.

The case was conducted in a reverse manner starting with the identification of a suspect, and then with Dewi Evans God like input, he offered alternative theories for deaths that had been deemed natural by pathologists. By no stretch of the imagination should a case be built like this.

The argument that all these babies were "fine" and "stable" despite prematurity and other factors necessitating their presence on NICU falls apart when if that was the case it should have been a huge red flag to the pathologists at the very least, and highlighted by the senior medical staff every time it happened.

And we can go on and on in never ending circles, picking apart Lucy Letbys demeanour, her relationship with her parents, her texts, her post it notes etc etc, but it counts for diddly squat in the face of conflicting, and sometimes fabricated by Evans medical evidence plus all the "confusion" from the likes of Ravi Jayaram etc which needs to be objectively re-analysed to ensure this was a safe conviction.

But you know all this, don't you?

This case is a clusterfuck and an embarrassment to our justice system.

Oftenaddled · 18/09/2026 22:28

Firefly1987 · 18/09/2026 19:48

@Oftenaddled Yeah they just wouldn't bother to challenge the insulin evidence would they? They probably searched the whole country to find an endocrinologist who could say this wasn't exogenous insulin. But there wasn't one who could say that, because it was.

There is no way in hell they didn't want to challenge that-they just couldn't!

Edited

You are making up stories again. They don't prove anything

Oftenaddled · 18/09/2026 22:33

MistressoftheDarkSide · 18/09/2026 20:45

For the umpteenth time, as has been explained over and over on multiple threads, group think is a real thing that can infect investigations / institutions.

This case was built around circumstantial evidence initially provided by the consultants, none of whom raised concerns of murder until the number of deaths had risen to an unacceptable level in their opinion. Nobody went to the pathologists or the coroner in a timely fashion. When no concerns were raised by the pathologists, it was only after the grievance issue was resolved that the police were approached, and initially the police didn't think there was a case. Whatever the consultants said to them when they had a further meeting seemed to spark it all. One has to wonder, if their suspicions were so strong, and the safeguarding of vulnerable babies was so uppermost in their minds, why theu didn't act sooner, hospital management be damned.

The case was conducted in a reverse manner starting with the identification of a suspect, and then with Dewi Evans God like input, he offered alternative theories for deaths that had been deemed natural by pathologists. By no stretch of the imagination should a case be built like this.

The argument that all these babies were "fine" and "stable" despite prematurity and other factors necessitating their presence on NICU falls apart when if that was the case it should have been a huge red flag to the pathologists at the very least, and highlighted by the senior medical staff every time it happened.

And we can go on and on in never ending circles, picking apart Lucy Letbys demeanour, her relationship with her parents, her texts, her post it notes etc etc, but it counts for diddly squat in the face of conflicting, and sometimes fabricated by Evans medical evidence plus all the "confusion" from the likes of Ravi Jayaram etc which needs to be objectively re-analysed to ensure this was a safe conviction.

But you know all this, don't you?

This case is a clusterfuck and an embarrassment to our justice system.

That's very well explained

The three short films by Guy Rowland on the police investigation and trial are really excellent, for anyone interested: and sequels

Supersimkin7 · 18/09/2026 22:38
  • hospital was shit
  • docs were scapegoating
  • medics’ evidence is hideously complex
  • statistics are misleading.

Doesn’t make her innocent. But there’s not enough reliable evidence to convict her again now.

People who saw her in court are convinced she’s guilty.

Me neither.

Firefly1987 · 18/09/2026 22:44

Oftenaddled · 18/09/2026 22:28

You are making up stories again. They don't prove anything

I'm not making up stories, it's just obvious that's what happened. What highly experienced barrister is going to go "nah lets not bother challenging the insulin test results, we'll just chance it and see" when no challenge basically meant it was guaranteed she'd be found guilty?

bluewanda · 18/09/2026 22:48

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/09/2026 22:09

You have no idea how you'd behave actually. Until you're in such a situation you have no idea. Also, you do and behave as your legal team tells you.

And BTW, that piece of alleged journalism reads like a penny dreadful.

So you, a complete stranger, have more idea how I’d behave in that situation than I myself do?

And claiming the BBC is some sort of sensationalist outlet? Don’t be ridiculous.

bluewanda · 18/09/2026 22:51

Oftenaddled · 17/09/2026 23:16

She was presumably told not to shout her innocence in court. Have you read coverage of people who do so, like Constance Martens for example? It's really very unfavourable.

You're reading Judith Moritz's subjective description of Lucy Letby in court there. I've read a lot of her cross examination. I don't see what Moritz is seeing. But I don't think it's a sensible basis to judge people on anyway - how they come across, heavily medicated, in a nightmarish situation like that.

Er, Constance Marten was guilty. So not really sure what point you’re trying to make there.

ifone · 18/09/2026 23:02

I've never believed she was guilty. This is a shocking case and I hope the truth comes out. The hospital, like many NHS hospitals, wasn't up to scratch and LL became the scapegoat.

Clarabell77 · 18/09/2026 23:54

The babies didn’t die because of the shit show at the hospital, the babies stopped dying when the evil monster was removed and the shit show happened after she had killed them.

Frequency · 19/09/2026 00:09

Clarabell77 · 18/09/2026 23:54

The babies didn’t die because of the shit show at the hospital, the babies stopped dying when the evil monster was removed and the shit show happened after she had killed them.

No, they just stopped investigating after Letby left because the dates of the deaths were "outside the scope of the investigation," i.e even Dewi Evans couldn't have dreamt up a way to blame Letby.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/02/07/letby-police-ignored-other-baby-deaths-on-unit/

TastingTheRainbow · 19/09/2026 00:16

Oftenaddled · 16/09/2026 23:37

Not at Chester. Dr Deakin got her a placement observing operations at Alder Hey Children's Hospital. She wasn't working at Chester. She never worked on the maternity ward there, only in the neonatal unit in its separate block until 2016. So that wasn't her, though obviously we are all vulnerable and on the watch after giving birth and I think people already knew about the police investigation which must have been a worry. Hope it all went well for you.

This right here is one of the big problems in this case, people lie after the event!

We have someone here claiming Lucy made her uncomfortable when she was there with her baby at a time when Lucy no longer worked there. How many other people have made stories fit what they now believe to be true?

I am on the fence and I really can’t decide either away, I know I wouldn’t leave her with my baby as I couldn’t confidently say she’s innocent but that’s not the standard we convict people by.

Firefly1987 · 19/09/2026 00:21

Frequency · 19/09/2026 00:09

No, they just stopped investigating after Letby left because the dates of the deaths were "outside the scope of the investigation," i.e even Dewi Evans couldn't have dreamt up a way to blame Letby.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/02/07/letby-police-ignored-other-baby-deaths-on-unit/

There has been one death since they removed her.

Frequency · 19/09/2026 00:30

And the unit had been downgraded, taking fewer babies and babies who were not as ill. The consultants increased their rounds from twice a week to twice a day.