To be shocked at ‘school readiness’

Yes adult education was huge. You left school at 14 but then carried on getting skills/ qualifications at night school. My dad was born in the late 1920’s from a very poor background. left school at 14. Later on did a degree at night school. FIL same but he went into construction and became a brick-layer, then moved up to site foreman etc. they were both very numerate and literate despite leaving school at 14. My dad used to cycle miles in all weathers (no car) from work, to night school, home again etc. it must have saved on fares.

Why can't a parent teach turn taking?
Or recognising their name written on a peg? Or know the right place to hang their coat? Or sitting still to listen to a story?

It can only be the parent's responsibility. Even if it was an absolutely shit childcare provider, its the parent that's chosen a shit facility!

Which other countries do not expect some of those things until 6? Are you sure?

Perhaps the 'reading' of their name, but it's not an expectation of reading exactly, just that they should be familiar with how their own name looks written down. Pattern recognition of one or two words isn't too much to ask, surely? My eldest could recognise all the letters of the alphabet at 2 and a half. Even if he couldn't actually do anything more with those letters, he was becoming familiar with the concept of letter shapes and the corresponding sounds long before he learned to join them together to form words. Most children learn to write their own name before they arrive at school. Or at least they did when mine were little.

Those European kids don't start actual school until that age but they will still be going to a setting where basic tasks like putting on their own coats is required, they are not all at home until age 7.

What worries me about how poorly parented so many young children are now, is what sort of adults will they be?
The things we're taught, examples set, rules show and boundaries drawn are the thing we internalise, so that as adults, we have self-control, impulse control, and the ability to fit into society without friction.

So what will that look like in a decade or two?

My dd was only just 4 when she started school so the youngest in her class- she was toilet trained before 3 years old, she could get dressed, hold a pencil, read and write her name, retell you familiar stories like the 3 little pigs or Owl Babies, speak in full sentences, follow instructions, listen to a story, count to 10, tell you her name and address etc. All basic stuff for school starters. She didn't go full time to nursery but went to Pe-school for 3 mornings a week the year prior to school starting.

But people have free access to all the information they could ever need on the internet. Why do they need to be taught in person? Surely, if you have a child, you think “what do I need to do to get them ready for school” then you google it on your smartphone, which everyone has?
Libraries are no longer prevalent, but they are available and free and contain books on parenting. You can look up what milestones your child should be reaching in so many places. I agree if your child is NOT reaching those milestones for SEN reasons, the support is scant at best, but as a parent, you need to take responsibility for being a parent, not be drip fed any and all information you might need.

We were in France on holiday the first week the kids went back to school. We saw a school bus picking up children at 5pm. I know in rural areas of France they are often picked up at about 7 in the morning as well, because they are on the bus for ages while it goes round several hamlets collecting kids before school even starts. It's such a long day.

They were tiny. I mean weeny little dots. Three or four, I'm guessing and obviously in pre-school plus wraparound care. I have no idea what age they start 'formal' learning in France compared to the UK but it's not like they are all at home enjoying the nurturing company of their parents all day long until they are 6 or 7, is it?

Later on did a degree at night school. FIL same but he went into construction and became a brick-layer, then moved up to site foreman etc. they were both very numerate and literate despite leaving school at 14

My father born in 1920s also went to night school and eventually became an engineering draughtsman despite leaving school at 15. Fil got a job in an insurance company as a 'clerk' and worked his way up. You had to be able to read and write to do these jobs. So they did have schools and stuff 100 years ago, and the vast majority of people could read and write. Who knew?

I haven't read through the responses but my DD has just started reception. During a teacher home visit at the start of summer I asked what phonics system they used so I could support etc, she basically told me not to bother because they needed to make sure the class was all on equal footing.
My DD can read and write her name, uses her manners, uses cutlery and can obvs use the loo and wipe/wash hands and change herself.
A week in and it's evident she is MILES ahead of her peers. It's not a stealth boast at all, but I am now in the position where I worry she will just mes about at school because alot (not all) of her class are miles behind where she is just with basically self care etc and it's really sad.

I daresay Tom and Poppy might actually understand the letters and sounds, but Phoebe and Niamh maybe not...

Yeah, my mother used to boast that I could read age 3, on the strength that I recognised OXO adverts on those old tin advertising boards outside shops.

There are too many shit parents nowadays. Why do they make the decision to breed if they aren't actually interested in actually parenting and have no aptitude for it?

They went to state run nurseries. My husband (former USSR) was in nursery 10 hours a day from about one year old. He has barely any memories of it because it was so awful. Staff ratios were dreadful. He does remember one child running through a glass door and his skin being cut to ribbons.

I'm not sure the internet is always a great thing though. Government advice can be looked up (is there any for raising children?) But there's a million and one people and 'experts' and influencers all with different opinions of how you should do things. It's easy to be left utterly bamboozled. It's a bit like how one min we're all told cortisol is the cause of every woe in middle age. Then it's all 'you need more protein', 'you must take collagen', 'you need x'. It can be a minefield trying to find decent science backed factual information on the www these days.

speaking of gov advice, when I had mine there were books we were given by the midwives on pregnancy and on how to care for your babies/toddlers. Do these still exist? Are the book start packages still a thing?

Are parents never to blame for anything? We both worked full time from when our babies were ten months. We taught them excellent manners, toilet training, eating skills and some reading. Before they went to school. No time is often an excuse. It’s about attitude.

Whilst I appreciate full time nursery is essential for many to meet today’s economic climate, it doesn’t mean parents gets to absolve themselves of the tough bits of parenting (eg. boundary setting and saying no when appropriate).
Parenting is the hardest job to do well, with the crappiest hours and conditions sometimes. It’s a choice that many seem make without considering this fully.

The reality is that life is REALLY hard when juggling F/T work and parenting. But it’s still the parents job to nurture and teach their children fundamental skills. Even when they are bone weary tired from work. They still need to be prepared to tolerate their child’s emotions. Parents who work F/T don’t see that much of their kids, so it makes sense that when they’re with them, they don’t want to upset them. But unfortunately they are the parent, and sometimes effective parenting means that your child will be angry/upset with things you say/do. It comes with the territory. And it’s horrible when you’ve not seen them all day. But that’s part of the job.

Maybe prospective parents need more education on the reality of parenting within today’s societal & economic pressures. It seems like an increasing amount are ill equipped to parent effectively and the kids are the ones who end up suffering. Meanwhile parents externalise & pathologise the issues - probably as a way of assuaging their internalised guilt for working F/T.
It is a really tough time to be a parent, but it’s not ok to do an (unintentionally) half arsed job and then expect teachers to make up the deficits (especially on top of all of their other targets & responsibilities)

Yes but it’s normal to send your child to some form of childcare. When we lived in Germany, our son went to crèche where he was expected to sit nicely at child-sized wooden tables and pour water from a glass jug into his own and other children’s glasses while tucking into a meal of meat, potato and two veg. From 18 months old. The children are pretty civilised there!

So much bashing of working mothers on here. Working full-time has no bearing on being able to teach your children bare minimum life skills. Likewise, being a SAHM is no indication that you will do this properly either. Second-generation children born to parents of Chinese, Indian and Eastern European origin have (by a wide margin) both the highest levels of educational attainment and the lowest proportion of school-related behaviour issues and these are the ethnicities with the highest proportion of mothers in employment.

If anyone did even a superficial Google search on the research and statistics, it shows that children of working mothers have ever so slightly higher educational attainment and skill acquisition over the course of their school time but it’s said that this is marginal and really there is no discernible difference whatsoever between whether the child comes from a SAHM or a working mothers. It’s not whether the mother works or doesn’t work that has the biggest influence on a child’s development and life outcomes. Correlation isn’t causation.

On a POPULATION level, after income and ethnicity/culture, the biggest indicator of a child’s future attainment is the educational attainment level of the child’s parents (especially the mother) regardless of whether she works or doesn’t work.

Most people on here seem to envision the average SAHM as being this yummy mummy affluent, trad, organic, free range, time-rich, engaged individual, like in a sitcom or American Reese Witherspoon TV drama. The vast majority of SAHM in this country are from lower income households, the kind that they used to show on Wife Swap in the 90s. The average household income in the UK when only the father works is £10,000 lower than the household income where both parents are working so most SAHM don’t have high-flying CEO husbands bringing in £500k. In a lot of lower income households, being a SAHM makes financial sense if you are unable to acquire a job based on your skills or educational qualifications that would surpass what you would have to spend on childcare. There are SAHM mothers in the former category who are raising utter monsters and SAHM in the latter who are bringing up beautifully behaved children and vice versa.

Whether you work or don’t work, you should be teaching your children basic life skills. There is no group of people (working vs SAHM) or working class vs middle class that is vastly outperforming the other in this area (if you control for poverty and neglect). There are utterly useless individuals in all groups and brilliant individuals and ones in between.

It always surprises me that people have a kid and then seem utterly astonished that they have to pay for them, teach them or raise them in any way and expect everyone else to do it. Mumsnet is full of people begrudging paying for lunch, uniform or making breakfast for their child, teaching them basic manners. Absolutely aghast that they have to buy their children a calculator or a pen or pay for any enriching or interesting experience for them ever. The mind boggles.

But there's a million and one people and 'experts' and influencers all with different opinions of how you should do things. It's easy to be left utterly bamboozled.

People don't know how to use the internet.* Instead of reading the million and one experts and influencers, go to a reputable website. I googled nhs child development and here you are:
https://www.nhs.uk/best-start-in-life/early-learning-development/
It leads on to starting reception.

*I remember once when there was an ongoing news story being discussed here, someone posted that she'd been Googling to see if there had been any developments. Why not go straight to the BBC website? (Other reputable news sites are available.)

The DCs nursery in the UK had real plates, metal cutlery, and glasses in all but the baby room...I remember being a bit surprised at first, but the DC were all fine with it after some practise.

This isn't true.

Other countries may not start "school" until 6/7 but most are in very structured preschools (sometimes these are mandatory, like in France) from as young as 3 where things like these are taught.

Then at 6/7 they begin formal "school" where it is fully expected that most kids can already do the basics.

This idea that kids in Europe/Scandi countries are playing in the mud and drawing on themselves without doing learning or laying the groundwork for school routines until almost 7 years old is ridiculous.

Being unable to do something, and being unable to do it in an unfamiliar, overwhelming and frightening environment are not the same thing! Surely a teacher of 4 year old children would recognise this? And some of these don’t seem that shocking to me - like a 4 year old who can’t read? (Because ‘recognise name written down is reading) - not unusual! The dripping coat to floor and manners thing again I’d say, these children are barely out of toddlerhood, if they are speaking, potty trained, able to use cutlery, dressed appropriately, holding pens and pencils etc they are school ready.

They will upping the work and stimulating her, she will be a pleasure to teach. I remember how much our has achieved in the first term is is amazing to see them bloom

Former reception teacher here. I believe you!

When I started teaching it was the odd one or two who made no attempt to put on a coat/shoes. By the time I left it was far more and increasing every year.

I remember teaching a little one how to put his shoes on (velcro and should have been achievable given his other skills) and then telling him he was going to do it from now on rather than bringing them to me to do. A few moments later he came running up to me with a huge smile on his face saying ‘I did it!’ Children need that sense of personal agency for their self esteem….