Lucy Letby (2)

And in this case if this was your family or close friend and it was the same evidence presented against Letby would you consider the evidence against them to be 'absolutely concrete evidence'?.

It's not a stupid question, it's about getting people to examine how concrete they feel the evidence actually is.

Lose the hyperbole.
From a medical perspective premmies are not fully formed. That's why they need neonate intensive care units which keep them alive by carrying out the vita functions which their own non fully formed organs cannot.

So you're asking if one of us was a biased family member would we believe she was innocent? Yeah probably! What does that prove? Nothing except the issue with people having biases and not being objective. There were family members of the 9/11 terrorists who didn't believe their son was involved.

I think her parents know deep down she's guilty. Her mum was the one she was texting about baby deaths constantly. She didn't tell them she was under investigation until she absolutely had to (in fact IIRC they found out themselves) and didn't she tell her friends not to go to court-so they haven't heard the evidence. If my friend who was supposedly innocent begged me not to attend court I think alarm bells would ring tbh.

No, I'm asking you to honestly consider it based on this evidence. There are some cases where family are quite clearly delusional when they think their family member didn't do it, they are clearly delusional because the evidence that the victim was murdered is irrefutable, and then the evidence that this person is the one who committed the crime is extremely strong and basically open and shut.

It's not something like well this person said they were cold, and then they searched for that person on facebook, the evidence is far more serious and damning.

But it's clear that you won't give an honest answer and will instead keep trying to muddy the waters.

I think her parents know deep down she's guilty.

And I believe that some of the police who investigated her now believe she probably didn't do it and they know the investigation was deeply flawed but they just don't have any integrity to say anything.

No, I'm asking you to honestly consider it based on this evidence. There are some cases where family are quite clearly delusional when they think their family member didn't do it, they are clearly delusional because the evidence that the victim was murdered is irrefutable, and then the evidence that this person is the one who committed the crime is extremely strong and basically open and shut.

It's not something like well this person said they were cold, and then they searched for that person on facebook, the evidence is far more serious and damning.

But it's clear that you won't give an honest answer and will instead keep trying to muddy the waters.

I think her parents know deep down she's guilty.

And I believe that some of the police who investigated her now believe she probably didn't do it and they know the investigation was deeply flawed but they just don't have any integrity to say anything.

I don't think failing a placement is a hugely significant insight into her as a person. Many student nurses do fail placements and go on to have long successful nursing careers. The fact that she was the only student the nurse ever failed isn't significant either. The assessors are not university tutors managing hundreds of students but ordinary ward nurses who might have 1-2 students per year. In many workplaces that take students it is expected that all qualified full time nurses will assess students.

Most of what I've read from people who knew Letby described her as very shy growing up. It's common for shy students to fail placements, because shyness can really act in opposition to the communication skills needed to be a good nurse.

It would be interesting to know if her mentors for her other placements found similar issues.

As a former nurse educator, I wouldn't say this was a huge red flag. If could contribute to a picture of a cold, unfeeling personality if it was part of multiple reports of the same issues, but from what I have seen, any reports of Letby prior to the accusations describe her as quite the opposite. She was a valued nurse on the unit.

Exactly. If she hasn't developed empathy by 21 she's never going to have it. It was the assessor's job to weed out those who are never going to be good or safe nurses-and she almost did it but of course Letby played victim and got another assessor.

@Oftenaddled I think her assessor knows the difference between a shy person with empathy and someone like Letby.

Nobody can actually judge who has empathy - just how they act.

Well likewise, you have no idea if she actually has any empathy. You're just choosing to put the most positive spin you possibly can on it. Presumably psychiatrists can tell enough to diagnose someone with ASPD etc. based on their behaviour.

One of them walked me down and carried my bag when I discharged myself. The minute we were off the ward she was friendly, chatting about her plans for the weekend, her studies, her family, asking how I was, making suggestions for looking after myself etc. I remember hoping she would get some guidance, or maybe experience a different ward culture, because there was nothing stopping her from showing empathy or even mild interest on the ward. For whatever reason she just wasn't doing it there. But it's a skill or a set of behaviours people can learn.

Sorry you had that experience. I believe there are a lot of nurses out there that shouldn't be doing the job. I think they should just admit they're not right for that particular work than try and teach them how to do something that doesn't come naturally to them.

How do they assess for empathy out of interest?

It's just assessing if they are demonstrating empathy, it's not an actual psychological assessment.

So presumably things like how they are with the babies and parents, are they actively listening to the parents and is there body language open and approachable? are they reassuring the parents, are they speaking to the babies in a soothing voice when ever they have to provide care, things like that, which might not necessarily come naturally to someone especially when they are so young.

It’s not easy and doesn’t come naturally for most people - you can feel empathy inside, but that doesn’t always equate to saying the right thing at times of others significant distress. Even the most experienced and compassionate clinicians will sometimes misjudge what a family needs and say the wrong thing - a young and inexperienced student or newly qualified nurse can easily say the wrong thing, nervously smile at the wrong time or just become like a rabbit in the headlights, as they just don’t know what to say in the face of overwhelming grief, anger and despair - as they are just as human and flawed as everyone else

Students and newly qualified clinical staff, need regular supervision and ongoing support from senior staff - and shouldn’t be left to manage very heightened and distressing situations on their own

The assessors aren't trained educators; they are nurses who are on shift and have their own duties to attend to. That's not an easy job, and it takes a lot of patience and understanding.

When I was a carer, part of my job as a senior was to train new carers. I was always open with my manager that I hated training people and was rubbish at it, and she knew to take my opinion on someone's capability with a pinch of salt.

It wasn't up to me to pass or fail anyone, but my opinion as a senior was taken into account when assigning shifts and deciding who was capable enough to be on the long busy shifts and who needed to be on the short shifts, who are only there to support the long shifts through the busy periods on the rota.

I especially hated training people on night shifts. They were busy, understaffed shifts with no leeway in timings, and trainees were there instead of an experienced carer, not as an extra pair of hands, so I wanted trainees to take on the easy tasks I assigned them, then stay out of my way and let me do my job. I didn't want them asking questions, needing support, or making mistakes.

Out of the dozens of carers I trained, I gave positive feedback on one carer. The rest ranged from meh to "put me on shift with them again, and I will hand in my notice." The common theme in the lack of capable carers I was assigned was me, not the carers, and my reluctance to find the time to actually train them.

Didnt her close friend say there is no way she could have done it?

It's an interesting idea. If you thought the game was up and you were going to be exposed as the awful psychopath you really are, you wouldnt really want your friends there witnessing it. If you were innocent, you might want all the support you could get.

And if killers knew there was cctv they would just change their MO anyway.

Yeah but she would say that. I don't think anyone is going to think their friend is capable of something so terrible.

Not when the evidence is so weak anyway.