to think no one can define living as a woman

I find it interesting that on threads to do with gender, trans etc atm there are lots of comments of “oh not this again, have a week off, it’s Christmas!”
It’s got me pondering… are we only allowed to discuss such things in certain months? And when it’s been discussed a few times we aren’t allowed to discuss it again?
Even though it’s still a problem.
My eyes momentarily paused today on a postcard I have on my study wall that says “women won’t weesht”. I’ll say it louder for those at the back…. No, women will not shut up about this until common sense prevails. Women WONT weesht.
Have another biscuit and let those of us who want to talk about it, talk about it.

Nobody's "foot stamping" but nice example of using emotive language to convey whole groups of people as angry, aggressive, dangers.
Straight out of the bigotry handbook and you see it all the time on here.

I worked in a department store as a student in 1996. A man dressed as a stereotypical woman came in to buy a bra. He had clearly had no hormonal treatment and was, very clearly, a large man dressed as a woman - skirt, heels, wig, makeup. He looked like he was in drag. Anyway, back then, the NHS would not give any medical gender-changing treatment to any man who had not spent two years living as a woman. I believe we all know what this means, even though some pretend they don't in order to make a point. It means presenting in a feminine way, which means skirts, dresses, heels etc.

This does NOT mean:

That women who don't present as stereotypically feminine aren't women.
That women who don't wear makeup and skirts/dresses/heels are living as men.
That men can be women just by changing to a stereotypical presentation.
That these stereotypes reduce all women to stereotypes. It is simply a fact that many women wear skirts, dresses, and/or heels while men don't.

The phrase "living as a woman" is used in a very specific context: That is, that men who want to transition need to change from a male presentation to one that the world recognises as specifically feminine. This is to help ensure that they do actually want to be more feminine than they are currently before doing something irrevocable like surgery and hormones. It means living as a woman IN COMPARISON TO how they normally live.

I believe everyone knows this but that some split hairs in order to make a point about female stereotypes. It's very tedious. No one thinks that women who don't present in a typically feminine fashion aren't women or that all women conform to the stereotypical feminine presentation.

The above is all just common sense.

It’s not been done to death, and it needs to be discussed openly and clearly until it’s universally accepted as the meaningless nonsense that it is. Men cannot ‘live as a woman’ because they are not one, and no amount of demanding and foot stamping will ever make them one.

True, due to the binary nature of the whole subject it can’t be dined. Anymore than I can define what it’s like to live as a dog or a parrot or a bicycle.

Is this person living as a woman? They are wearing a skirt, and enjoying it, apparently:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5400132-glp-are-going-after-sarah-philmore-and-are-going-to-lose?reply=146748806&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

I guess the real question is

"Is Gender a Western issue based around AGP desires to dress
as their mothers ? "

How do South Asian AGPs dress ?
What about Masai AGPs ?
Or Mongolian AGPs ?

If gender dysphoria is truly a human trait
rather than a social contagion
it would appear at even rates across all societies

so, where is the evidence collected in non Western, non rich societies ?

No its a man in women's clothes.
90% of women dont wear dresses and/or make-up all day every day.
Womens clothes are cut for women's body shapes not mens so men look ridiculous in women's clothes as they dont fit any that do aren't designed for women they're designed for men so they're mens clothes.
Oh and outdated stereotypes belong in the bin and should not be used to claim a man is a woman or is in anyway living as a woman

Then wearing feminine clothes cant make a man a woman. If womanhood is defined by clothes and makeup then only those people who do are living as a woman.
This is an extremely offensive take on womanhood which excludes 90% of women to include 0.1% of men under the word woman, when in reality no man regardless of how he dresses, what surgeries, cross sex hormones he takes or even whatever oh so special feelings he claims to have can ever be a woman. He's a man hes male hes hot XY chromosomes in every cell of his being and can never live as a woman

I’d have thought it blindingly obvious that wearing skirts and dresses and heels and makeup etc is living more like a woman than if he’d stayed presenting as a man

The problem is that this is a very narrow as well as culturally, geographically and historically changeable presentation isn’t it?

In Afghanistan, living as a woman involves

• no work
• no secondary education
• being fully covered at all times outside the home
• never being heard to speak
• being denied medical care

I think I'd define living as a woman as experiencing sexism in my daily life. This could be around assumptions regarding my ability to parallel park, how much I really enjoy cooking or whether I'm capable of doing what are usually considered man-like tasks, such as stripping down and rebuilding a carburettor.

To be honest, I'm a bit sick of this whole endless conversation where a bunch of psychotically obsessed people keep trying to ram down everyone's throat what it means to be a 'real' woman. It's not helping women like me (nearly 60, born with all the female bits) who just want to get on with our lives without constantly having to think about gender.

If folks are that interested in keeping women safe, maybe set up a self defence group, volunteer at a DV or crisis centre, campaign to sort out the crippling debt problem loads of women are struggling under. Because this repetitive carping is doing nothing to help the actual women folks are claiming they want to defend. Lazy.

Living as a woman to me means wearing feminine clothes, makeup, jewellery, and having hair longer than a short back and sides.

I am wearing, as usual, jeans and a jumper. I don't wear makeup or jewellery. My hair is much shorter than my son's. And I actually have an entirely gender-neutral name (not because I changed it to Ash or anything unusual; it just is), and a maths-based doctorate.

I'm possibly a stereotype of a different sort, but I'm still very much 'living as a woman'.

🤭

@SoftBalletShoesbut a stereotypical woman is more than a femininely dressed one. She also loves to care for her family, if she works she prefers low paid care type roles, she steps in to care for sick and elderly relatives and is always the one to leave work to collect sick children. So why bother educating women to higher levels when she’s not destined for a career? She’s better at cleaning so she does the housework. She doesn’t understand money as well as a man so should not have control and therefore access to the family money. The stereotype is she’s a worse driver and can’t reverse park so should we even let women drive?
stereotypes are used to discriminate against people. Stereotypes are harmful. The feminine stereotypes are even the reason so many women conform to the appearance and grooming ones. You can’t pick and choose which stereotypes are acceptable about a group of people this way??

So at what point does someone not living as a woman - who doesn’t wear make up dresses or heels - who doesn’t like shopping and is good at maths - stop being a woman ?

because there must be a tipping point

ediy this assumes woman didn’t mean female adult human

You’ve successfully managed to reduce womanhood to a series of stereotypes rather than a biological reality. Women spent decades fighting those stereotypes and now they’re on the rise again and this time, we’re hearing that men who perform those stereotypes are better women than those of use who choose not to. It’s so offensive

No two women will have the same experiences. For many of us we have been negatively impacted by being a woman but for many this hasn’t been a noticeable impact for them. Some of us hate it. Some of us love it. Some of us can have children, some can’t but want to, some don’t want to be mothers. Some love to conform to gender stereotypes and others wear trousers no makeup and don’t shave their armpits- most will fall somewhere in the middle of that.

literally the only thing all women have in common is our chromosomal biology and the type of gametes our bodies are programmed to produce. With the few exceptions of those with differences in sexual development but even then with unusual chromosomes they will be male or female on a genetic level.

there is no definition of woman based on what people like/dislike/do/wear, uterus/no uterus etc mother/not mother, skilled work/care work. No definition will ever include all women unless you use adult human female as a definition.

im always so offended when it’s assumed I have a gender. I do not. Or if I’m told I’m cis because I am not. If we go by these offensive stereotypes I don’t fit because I’m a single parent so all the money and practical stuff falls to me as does the housework and childcare. I don’t conform to beauty standards or wear dresses but no person has ever got confused about my sex when harassing me or discriminating against me. I’d love to have the advantages men get in life and the praise for such basic parenting. I hated being pregnant so could easily swap with a dad and still be an amazing involved parent- past breastfeeding age I don’t parent with my breasts or genitals do I I could de everything I do as a man but society would stop kicking me while I’m down for being a single parent!

If you are a man who wears dresses and heels and makeup etc then you are living more like a stereotypical woman than if you dress and present like a man. Isn’t that really obvious?

Some women choosing not to present as stereotypically feminine doesn’t change that or have anything to do with it.

It really doesn't mean that to TIM.
A lot certainly do choose to adopt stereotypically female presentation, but that's just the way some choose to express 'being a woman' and send the message to the world to treat them as such.
Living as a woman is really just when a man tells the world he knows he's a woman really, and that they must now treat him as though he is. Some TIM don't even shave their beards. Because it's all about the feeling and the knowing. Apparantly.

Don't be ridiculous, you're not the thread police! Who are you to say what's been "done to death" ??

OP, I agree with you. Eddie Izzard said he "knew he was a woman because he felt like one" and I thought what a nonsense thing to say, how would you know what that feels like when you are a biological man?

Yes, of course he’s still a man. But I’d have thought it blindingly obvious that wearing skirts and dresses and heels and makeup etc is living more like a woman than if he’d stayed presenting as a man.