Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

741 replies

CohensDiamondTeeth · 03/12/2025 07:41

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/mango-data-privacy-policy.pdf?utm_campaign=1859632_EDI%20update%20for%20parents%202%20December%202025&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigitalemails

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 14:06

"I'm afraid it's absolutely you who is constantly reducing the debate about social interactions to sex organs"

Another thing about this accusation is that it does highlight the very significant issue with language and coercion to used someone else's language.

If I used the term 'girl' in my posts to discuss 'female people', it would immediately be assumed that I included any male who called himself a 'girl'. (including the adult male people who have declared that they are baby girls and live in diapers).

In fact, if I used the term 'girl' in my posts, to then make a point about a male child, I would then have to add the disclaimer 'this does not refer to trans girls'. Maybe some posters would find this less 'cruel'. That I have to pretzel what I write to suit their choices while attempting to maintain accuracy.

Adding any disclaimer for accuracy is just as cruel, in my opinion.

However, there was an interesting dynamic in one of the questions asked:

"Do you see my trans daughter as a threat to the other girls?"

'other' girls.

Meaning that any use of the term 'girls' with some posters will be assumed to include any male person that declares that they are. How are we supposed to have safeguarding discussions for female people of any age when we are being coerced into using obfuscating language?

We cannot. Because of demands such as this, we cannot have the clear and accurate discussions needed and we are constantly having to assess the language that we do use.

All because some male people have a philosophical belief (because there is no biological markers used for diagnosis) that they are not the sex they materially are. Yet, apparently there is no harm at all being done to women and girls.

(and yes, I mean only women and girls who are female people).

Catiette · 03/12/2025 14:00

Dramatic · 03/12/2025 13:40

I always mention my own childhood in threads like these because if I had been a child growing up now I have no doubt that I'd have been dragged in to the trans world.

I always hated dresses and anything girly. I can remember being tiny (maybe 2 or 3) and being dressed up in frilly dresses and absolutely hating it. At around 5 or 6 I became obsessed with football. I almost exclusively wore football kits for about 7 years. I had my hair cut as short as my Mam would allow. I didn't wear any clothes from the girls section at all.

But the most important thing is that because I was a child and I didn't have full understanding or life experience I was absolutely adamant that I wanted to be a boy. If someone had said to me "well you can be a boy if you want to" I'd have snapped their hand off. As I grew and finally reached puberty (I was a very late bloomer) I began to feel completely differently about it, I accepted I was a woman and am happy with it. I am married with 4 kids, I still don't like dresses, I don't get my nails/hair done and all that but that isn't what makes me a woman.

Had I been accepted as a "boy" as a toddler I can only imagine I probably would have been sent down a road that's hard to come back from.

Me, too. I felt so "wrong" in my early teens as I watched many (thankfully, not all - the '90s were far better than now in this respect) girls around me succumb to make-up and flirty giggles. But I could see even then how performative it was, and found my crowd outside it - in fact, it's when my feminist instincts really awoke, as I understood girls could be like that, but didn't have to be.

Now, in contrast, I really do suspect I'd have become convinced I was "trans". I recognise that, for girls like I was then, "trans" identification must appear to offer an escape, a safe category that "explains" their sense of difference. But I really do believe that, in most (all?) cases, it's simply rather that we still needed more work on dissociating "girl" from "make-up" etc.!

And I honestly thought we were getting there, too. I never thought we could entirely escape the inclination to perform gender (and why should we? freedom of expression and all that!) but I did think that we'd move towards an acceptance of "some girls choose to go down this route, others don't, there's an infinite range of possible ways for girls to be girls" etc. I never, ever dreamt that a performance of femininity would, within 2 decades, be used to, quite literally, redefine the very concept of what it is to be a "girl". To my mind, it's one hell of a pendulum swing back from the progress we'd made.

Kleeneze · 03/12/2025 13:53

Catiette · 03/12/2025 10:43

Thanks for the thoughtful follow-up, Solid. It must be difficult reading these contrasting viewpoints in relation to your child. I know that there are children whose transgenderism is apparent from a very early age, and who persist throughout life - I've talked about this with medical professionals who have treated them. But I also know that these professionals say that this is exceptionally, vanishingly rare, and that there's limited understanding of why it happens. In this context, with young children so sensitive to and confused by social cues - and autistic children so desperate to find and cling to reassuring patterns and rules - I think it's vitally important for parents who see their child as trans to be aware of the messages they may be sending, intentionally or not, from birth onwards.

It really does start that early, and is utterly insidious. It can be so hard to resist that instinct to greet the male newborn as a "big, strong boy" and the girl as a "pretty little thing". I mean, FFS, I find myself doing it with the family cats - "Go get him, Paws!" versus "Aw, poor little Twinkle!" kinda thing. And I'm thoroughly GC and a lifelong feminist.

I'm not saying this is necessarily what's happening in your case, but just wish there was wider understanding of how messaging about gender suffuses our world and how damaging and limiting it can be. The current ideology celebrates as progressive attitudes that I think are regressive and pretty destructive. I feel so sad to look back on the progress made in the 80s - girls with short hair, boys with long hair, gender-neutral clothing - and then see virtually every secondary school-aged female now with her perfectly coiffed long hair and prematurely made-up face. And then to know that the odd one out with the short hair is likely to be assumed to be non-binary or trans?! What it means to be female / a girl has been squashed right back down, corset-style, into a single, stereotypically feminine shape. And we've done this to them, somehow - we built this society.

It's devastating, tbh.

Edited

Totally agree that Gender Ideology is regressive. It just looks at stereotypes allocates them to sexes and says if you like a, b and c you must be a boy / girl. It’s taking us back to the stone ages. My 3 year old likes his sisters hair clips. I’m really worried I’m damaging him by not calling him Jane and putting a pink dress on him. Except I’m not worried at all, because playing with a wide range of interesting things at a young age s just being a child. There’s no way I’d damage the mental health of my child by saying oooh, that makes you a boy / girl. That’s how to totally mess up your child..

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:53

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:48

@Helleofabore , re: "Plus at the start of covid, he was telling us all that the reason women were not dying in the numbers that men were was because it was men out there working dealing with people. Meaning the women were not working at all..."

I didn't know that. Appalling male misogynist cliché at its best. I mean, the most vulnerable, exposed professions were surely NHS (largely female) and education (largely female). AKA, the "caring" professions. Again, though I've not read the source or context, my initial impression is that it represents yet more superficial stereotyping (men = active, heroic, women = passive, protected) that disregards/denies a more mundane reality (women = working damn hard in difficult contexts & undervalued roles!)

Edited

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3869907-Jane-Fae-The-coronavirus-death-rate-for-men-is-high-possibly-because-women-are-not-pulling-their-weight-in-the-crisis?page=1

here is the thread.

Jane Fae: The coronavirus death rate for men is high possibly because women 'are not pulling their weight in the crisis' | Mumsnet

How is this anything other than a men's rights movement?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3869907-Jane-Fae-The-coronavirus-death-rate-for-men-is-high-possibly-because-women-are-not-pulling-their-weight-in-the-crisis?page=1

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:51

Fae was also awarded in the TOP 100 lesbians by DIVA, and this was AFTER the tweet about 'eggshell heads' and with the knowledge of his extreme porn legalisation campaigning and other porn campaigning.

But apparently, all in the enrichment of the woman experience.

Dramatic · 03/12/2025 13:50

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:48

@Helleofabore , re: "Plus at the start of covid, he was telling us all that the reason women were not dying in the numbers that men were was because it was men out there working dealing with people. Meaning the women were not working at all..."

I didn't know that. Appalling male misogynist cliché at its best. I mean, the most vulnerable, exposed professions were surely NHS (largely female) and education (largely female). AKA, the "caring" professions. Again, though I've not read the source or context, my initial impression is that it represents yet more superficial stereotyping (men = active, heroic, women = passive, protected) that disregards/denies a more mundane reality (women = working damn hard in difficult contexts & undervalued roles!)

Edited

And ignoring the biological fact that women tend to do better in a medical sense, female premature babies are more likely to survive than males for example.

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:48

@Helleofabore , re: "Plus at the start of covid, he was telling us all that the reason women were not dying in the numbers that men were was because it was men out there working dealing with people. Meaning the women were not working at all..."

I didn't know that. Appalling male misogynist cliché at its best. I mean, the most vulnerable, exposed professions were surely NHS (largely female) and education (largely female). AKA, the "caring" professions. Again, though I've not read the source or context, my initial impression is that it represents yet more superficial stereotyping (men = active, heroic, women = passive, protected) that disregards/denies a more mundane reality (women = working damn hard in difficult contexts & undervalued roles!)

Dramatic · 03/12/2025 13:40

I always mention my own childhood in threads like these because if I had been a child growing up now I have no doubt that I'd have been dragged in to the trans world.

I always hated dresses and anything girly. I can remember being tiny (maybe 2 or 3) and being dressed up in frilly dresses and absolutely hating it. At around 5 or 6 I became obsessed with football. I almost exclusively wore football kits for about 7 years. I had my hair cut as short as my Mam would allow. I didn't wear any clothes from the girls section at all.

But the most important thing is that because I was a child and I didn't have full understanding or life experience I was absolutely adamant that I wanted to be a boy. If someone had said to me "well you can be a boy if you want to" I'd have snapped their hand off. As I grew and finally reached puberty (I was a very late bloomer) I began to feel completely differently about it, I accepted I was a woman and am happy with it. I am married with 4 kids, I still don't like dresses, I don't get my nails/hair done and all that but that isn't what makes me a woman.

Had I been accepted as a "boy" as a toddler I can only imagine I probably would have been sent down a road that's hard to come back from.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:39

Didn't Jane Fae somewhere give advice to GG? On SAFEGUARDING?

Here he is "adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman."

(twitter 26/3/2018)
"Most murder is boring, pedestrian, even accidental stuff."
"Somewhere between a third and a half result from too much alcohol. A high proportion are domestic violence 'gone wrong'. A blow struck one time too many: an egg shell skull"
Jane Fae

(twitter 26/3/2018)
he quipped:
I had only to suggest that murder was not some sort of high end glamour crime, and the cisterhood went ballistic ...

But Fae also has supportively campaigned for legalisation of extreme porn. And iirc for the lowering of the age of 'porn' actors.

Plus at the start of covid, he was telling us all that the reason women were not dying in the numbers that men were was because it was men out there working dealing with people. Meaning the women were not working at all...

Yet, I believe that Fae has given advice to GG in the past. I will go and find out more about that. It might have been via his work with Stonewall.

Definitely, this is another male person who is enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:31

Silverbirchleaf · 03/12/2025 13:29

Surely if the GG wanted to admit Trans girls, all they need to do was declare they’re a mixed sex organisation from now on? Problem solved. And going forward, welcome girls and boys to their numbers. They can drop the ‘Girl’ prefix and just become Guides.

If they had wished to prioritise those male people, then yes, they could very well have changed to be a mixed sex organisation such as Scouts did.

That they did not is actually a very solid indicator, as far as I believe, that they know that this is not what female people wanted.

user1471538275 · 03/12/2025 13:31

"I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect her gender.
In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language."

What you are asking us to do is join in a belief system where 'gender' is some nebulous feeling existant in individuals, which is apparently more important than the reality of their sexed body, which they will have their entire lives.

Children's inner worlds shift and change - young children believe in magical reality and have lots of magic ideas.

As children grow their brain matures and they see the failure of the magical reality world - they start to understand the reality of the world and how it works.

You are asking us to pretend along with people who should have long outgrown this magical reality stage - to keep them in a state of immaturity, where they do not grow fully into an adult, either in thought or body.

TheKeatingFive · 03/12/2025 13:29

Silverbirchleaf · 03/12/2025 13:29

Surely if the GG wanted to admit Trans girls, all they need to do was declare they’re a mixed sex organisation from now on? Problem solved. And going forward, welcome girls and boys to their numbers. They can drop the ‘Girl’ prefix and just become Guides.

Exactly. But they don't want to do that. I wonder why?

Silverbirchleaf · 03/12/2025 13:29

Surely if the GG wanted to admit Trans girls, all they need to do was declare they’re a mixed sex organisation from now on? Problem solved. And going forward, welcome girls and boys to their numbers. They can drop the ‘Girl’ prefix and just become Guides.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:28

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:22

ETA: in response to Solid, 2 posts above.

The problem is, I could similarly sum up my massive post above as:

"I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect our sex. In my view, the erasure of women is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language."

Edited

Oh snap! I just read down and see you did the same thing.

Clefable · 03/12/2025 13:26

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:13

Took ages on the below, and see the thread's run away with me - apologies to the new conversations I'm now interrupting and any subsequent posts addressing these points already, better than I do.

So...

Thanks. Interesting reply. The thing is, there are some things in it that I do think, again (with apologies for being somewhat direct) come from a rather superficial understanding of a hugely complex issue - and perhaps also activist talking points. I used to think the much same, but have read and seen so much since that I've now, regrettably, come to realise how much I was missing back then.

their lived experience and social reality probably has much more in common with women and girls

Potentially trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman

I'd question this from a number of perspectives.

Firstly, biology is relevant to our argument - if not as "fundamentally"(!) central as some activists would have us believe! Eg. Consider this WI group being set up to compensate for TW no longer being members, to discuss "experiences of what it is to be a woman", or suchlike. Honestly, the only times I actually think of myself as being a woman rather than, simply, a human or an individual, tend to relate to what distinguishes me from the male sex class: certain functions, discrimination against me on the basis of the type of body I have and women's historical oppression, my proportionate physical vulnerability etc. Please note, this isn't about "sex organs", but, instead, the practical realities of being female in a world designed for males, up to and including not having a hope in hell of getting Grade 8 piano because of male-default keyboards (still resentful) or being able to bloody reach the microwave in my own flat or office (crazy!), or feeling able to challenge the male taxi drivers who ask if I'm married or try to bully me into paying extra, knowing I'm too small to oppose them and will leave the cab conscious that they know where I live. I'm honestly not sure how transwomen's "lived experience and social reality" aligns with this. This isn't to (popular "gotcha") present myself as a victim, any more than than a Black person discussing their experience of racism would be. In fact, in a world in which racist verbal micro-aggression are utter anathema, it astonishes me that women have to make this pre-emptive defence when describing the challenges they face!

Secondly, I think it's really important to recognise that "transwomen" is a wide-ranging umbrella term. This was very difficult for me to accept at first, as it isn't the popular media narrative and is very difficult to discuss in this context especially, involving, as it does, some unpleasant reading and corners of the internet. It's summed up very well in another MN thread called something like, "Where do people think all the transvestites have gone?" This group, previously accepted unquestioningly as, at best, a humiliating imitation of what it means to be female, and at worst, a potential risk to women and girls, has been subsumed into the trans umbrella. For them, it's not about dysphoria, but sexual fetish - and there are clearly many of them. Their own accounts are particularly interesting to read (eg. Debbie Hayton), if sometimes somewhat sexually explicit (google Andrea Long Chu, who may or may not fall into this group, whose description of what "she" thinks it means to be a woman certainly corresponds to aspects of this, and see if you can stomach this - "enriching" for us it ain't!) Looking at such men's reams of photos is rather less advisable! I honestly find it hard to put into words how viscerally distressing I find the suggestion that the "lived experience and social reality" of a man who identifies as trans for this reason in any way reflects my own.

This then leads us to another, different group - the deeply dysphoric, like your son. Here, things are much more complex, and I've a huge amount of sympathy for such individuals, particularly today, in fact, as they find out that organisations that unlawfully welcomed them for years are now ejecting them. I know quite a few currently trans-identifying children (I phrase that carefully, given desistance rates) and it distresses me to think how their needs have been misrepresented and undermined by an unthinking ideology that, in its authoritarian bent, demanded the impossible and unreasonable of women and girls in their name, and has, ironically, thereby done them lasting damage. A more open, democratic approach (google eg. "the Dentons document") could have avoided or mitigated what your child is currently experiencing. But even then, I truly don't see what this group has in common with me. Logically - and evidentially - their main (only?) way to signify their internal trans identity is by adopting external behaviours and features stereotypically or commonly associated with girls and women (whether joining Guides, or wearing a dress, or undergoing hormonal or cosmetic changes). And I don't want women - me - to be associated with any external behaviours and features, or classified according to these! And I do want us to retain the option of single-sex groups, for the reasons I give above. There are also some males in this group who take this approach to such an extreme (google Dylan Mulvaney) that they make your concept that "trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman" downright offensive to me.

Then, there's the issue of transmen and non binary individuals. Statistics indicate fairly clearly, to my mind, that a good proportion of girls, particular autistic and lesbian girls, are embracing these identities as they see "woman" and "female" become crushingly associated with external, often sexualised, appearance - in part because of the the umbrella term "transwomen" and all it entails, and for a thousand and one other depressing reasons (including the proliferation of porn, which factors into all this in the most disturbing of ways - Jo Bartosch is good on this). I want "woman" to be, simply, a practical and necessary descriptor that is 99.9% accurate in capturing a demographic of humans with particular needs... and is otherwise utterly irrelevant to who they are - to what they wear, or how they behave, what they can do etc.

As long as transwomen continue to dilute who and what women are, and women's rights - and society's understanding of the most fundamental, essential aspects of this - in a way that I feel risks reducing women to something external and wholly unrelated to (indeed, that is damaging to) our demographic, I will continue to speak out in a way that some may mistakenly interpret as anti-trans... but that is, quite simply, pro-woman.

Basically, all I ask is that our identity is validated, too, as distinct and worthwhile, and that it's not forcibly subsumed into something so different, so complex and, sometimes, so very starkly in opposition to our needs. Think of these trigger-warnings the BBC is giving before hosting a speaker who may misgender a transwoman! In some parallel universe somewhere, where women are valued in their own right, another BBC is giving a trigger warning to women each time they call a male "she", "woman" or "female", in recognition of how utterly unethical it is to redefine a whole portion of humanity according to the internal self-perception of the portion that has oppressed them for millennia. I mean, marital rape (woman-as-secondary-to-or-extension-of-husband) was outlawed only a few decades ago in the UK! We're not a part of males, subject to and shaped by their minds and wills.

Or at any rate, we shouldn't be.

Edited

This is one of the best posts I’ve read on MN about this matter. Thank you.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:25

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 13:19

I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect her gender.

In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language.

"I'm simply asking you to respect her gender."

And that above, is in fact your demand. You claim that you are not demanding it, yet you have made accusations about my cruelty for not following your demand more than once. That is coercive on your part.

Please can you simply stop and start thinking about what people are posting instead of reacting emotionally to it and making fucking accusations?

"In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language."

In my view, the erasure of female people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language.

BundleBoogie · 03/12/2025 13:23

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 13:19

I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect her gender.

In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language.

What do you mean by ‘gender’?

If we don’t believe that ‘gender’ is a thing and that it certainly doesn’t overwrite sex in relevant scenarios - what should we do? Can you respect our views?

TheKeatingFive · 03/12/2025 13:23

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 13:19

I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect her gender.

In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language.

Your child's 'gender identity' is a metaphysical belief. It has no factual basis, just like a religion.

No one is under any obligation to agree that it's of any consequence to this debate or lie about how they see you child to you.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:22

Catiette mentioned Andrea Long Chu

https://x.com/LadyNorvician/status/1878385479436935448/photo/1

Here is a selection of male people who are obviously "adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman."

"AUTOGYNEPHILIA DESCRIBES NOT AN OBSCURE PARAPHILIC AFFLICTION BUT RATHER THE BASIC STRUCTURE OF ALL HUMAN SEXUALITY. THE ASSIMILATION OF ANY EROTIC IMAGE IS, BY NATURE,
FEMALE.

TO BE FEMALE IS, IN EVERY CASE TO BECOME WHAT SOMEONE ELSE WANTS. AT BOTTOM, THE ASSHOLE [IS] A UNIVERSAL VAGINA THROUGH WHICH FEMALENESS CAN ALWAYS BE ACCESSED."

ANDREA LONG CHU
TRANS-IDENTIFYING
ACADEMIC AND AUTHOR

and

"PORNOGRAPHY IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE WHEN YOU THINK YOU HAVE AN OBJECT, BUT REALLY THE OBJECT HAS YOU. IT IS THEREFORE A
QUINTESSENTIAL EXPRESSION OF FEMALENESS.

GETTING FUCKED MAKES YOU FEMALE BECAUSE FUCKED IS WHAT A FEMALE IS."

ANDREA LONG CHU
TRANS-IDENTIFYING
ACADEMIC AND AUTHOR

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:22

ETA: in response to Solid, 2 posts above.

The problem is, I could similarly sum up my massive post above as:

"I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect our sex. In my view, the erasure of women is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language."

BundleBoogie · 03/12/2025 13:21

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 10:27

I'm not asking for "cheques from society", all I'm asking for is understanding.

I saw a trans woman on public transport the other day, I observed a lot of staring at "the other". It felt slightly threatening. I hope it'll be different for my child when she comes of age, if her gender remains as it is.

My child consistently, persistently and insistently asserted herself as girl, often to the point of great distress. She constantly corrected us. We pushed back but she persisted. This occurred for over a year before her 'social' transition. Please don't make assumptions that we guided her to this.

She may well be autistic, we are on the list for a referral (years now). To my mind this is just another part of the puzzle, the brilliant unique person that she is, not a simple explanation to dismiss her 'gender dysphoria'.

Because she isn't - at the moment - dysphoric (ie: unhappy). She seems happy in her body and who she is, though this decision is the probably the first of many societal knocks.

She knows what her sex is, she knows what her gender is. Her existence isn't the problem but she is being made to feel that it is. That's why I mentioned the suicide rates earlier - I have spent much of my adult life battling quite severe mental illness. In supporting in her, in making her feel safe and listened to - at home and in our community - I hope she can have an easier path than the many trans people before her who have been ostracised by society.

(Sidenote - if anyone has links that debunk the widely quoted 30-50% suicide attempt statistic for trans people, I'd be very interested to read. It's hard to get reliable statistics on suicide, much less on a marginalised community.)

It's not an easy path, far from it. I suppose we don't always get to choose our paths through life.

I probably won't post much more today as I need to get on with work but I hope you all have a good day, thanks for the discussion.

She seems happy in her body and who she is, though this decision is the probably the first of many societal knocks.
She knows what her sex is, she knows what her gender is. Her existence isn't the problem but she is being made to feel that it is.

So your child knows he is male and is happy in his body. That is very good news. I hope you don’t mind but I need to use male pronouns to refer to a boy for various reasons. It is not intended as disrespect. It is not clear from your posts what age he is.

I guess the big questions are -

what do you mean by ‘gender’?
what does he mean by ‘girl’?
does his understanding of ‘girl’ match yours? (I’m guessing not as you know he is male therefore a boy and he is a child who may have category confusion)
if you have confirmed to him (and everyone who meets him) that he is a ‘girl’ for all purposes, how do you think that will go when he is confronted with something that irrefutably demonstrates his sex, like puberty for example?

I saw a trans woman on public transport the other day, I observed a lot of staring at "the other". It felt slightly threatening. I hope it'll be different for my child when she comes of age, if her gender remains as it is.

If a man is out in public obviously trying to look like a woman, he is ‘other’ and will inevitably attract stares. He may be dressed like that because of a sexual fetish (many are) and he may get upset or aggressive when denied entry to women’s spaces. I know that men trying to look like women do make normal men uncomfortable at a deep level and obviously many women who may face a battle with him.

That is not going to change unless the trans lobby admit they were wrong and that riding roughshod over everyone’s rights for a tiny minority of men is not working. They need to change tack and work towards trans people genuinely fitting into society without impinging on everyone else.

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 13:19

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 12:48

And you declaring people who don't use the language you demand as cruel is the very definition of 'polarisation of the debate'.

I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect her gender.

In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language.

FancyCatSlave · 03/12/2025 13:16

I still won’t be sending DD to GG, the whole organisation gives me the creeps. Their stance on this is abhorrent. I got cold shouldered in our small village because one of the prominent village residents is the local Brown Owl and I made it quite clear at the time that I disagreed with the GG policies on gender and “inclusivity”.

DD is your classic “tomboy” and we’re on the waitlist for Beavers where I feel she we will have a genuinely good experience. She’s not a boy, she isn’t confused, she just prefers less traditionally “girly” things and prefers the company of boys who like dinosaurs and mud and roaring rather than pink and unicorns and fluff. There’s very little risk in our traditional rural community of coming across any actual trans nonsense (the pub doesn’t even cater for vegans, it’s a very non woke part of the world) but it’s the principle of the thing for me. GG aren’t sorry, they are sorry they have been caught 🤮

PullingOutHair123 · 03/12/2025 13:14

SP2024 · 03/12/2025 13:01

As a leader I really don’t actually care about whether trans people are in the organisation. I think the number must be extortionately small. I also don’t object to men being unit helpers or male children being able to accompany a leader on a holiday (if they have no childcare etc). What I DO object to is the guidelines that prevented leaders being open and honest about that with other volunteers, the children and their parents. If I have a male helper coming away I have to tell parents, provide separate sleeping and toileting facilities. They could then make a choice about participating based on all the facts. If I have a person with a penis who identifies as a woman attending I can’t tell parents that. That feels wrong to me, especially when I know some of the parents or families are strict Muslims or have experienced sexual abuse. They are trusting me with their most precious child and I’m not allowed to be honest with them. Luckily it hasn’t come up as no trans volunteers in my area but it could do. The new guidance doesn’t address this issue at all.

As a separate but related issue if I took my 7 year old son on a trip or residential I need to have a separate adult for ratios but if I had a daughter instead (or identified my son as a girl) they could be counted as a member. Make it make sense!

Exactly. This is my issue with the GG stance. Why are they pretending boys are girls? This is outright fantasy, and ignores basic facts.

People keep bringing up Scouting. The difference is that Scouting is not single sex, doesn't pretend to be, and has policies in place for having 2 sexes within the group. Facilities are provided for both sexes etc.

GG have just said we are single sex, we accept boys that say they are girls, and as they are girls, we do not need to change anything. It is fantasy land.

I am just glad they have u-turned before there was a safeguarding incident. Assuming there hasn't been one.

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:13

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 12:25

Absolutely - as a feminist, I have a lot of time for the study you shared.

I suppose I must be a "trans inclusionary" feminist, if you like, though I don't want to get too political about that! And though trans women's biology may be male (sorry to reduce it to that again, it is me this time!) their lived experience and social reality probably has much more in common with women and girls. And so they can and should be included as such, where appropriate.

I don't believe they are necessarily erasing women/girls by their presence. Potentially trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman.

Took ages on the below, and see the thread's run away with me - apologies to the new conversations I'm now interrupting and any subsequent posts addressing these points already, better than I do.

So...

Thanks. Interesting reply. The thing is, there are some things in it that I do think, again (with apologies for being somewhat direct) come from a rather superficial understanding of a hugely complex issue - and perhaps also activist talking points. I used to think the much same, but have read and seen so much since that I've now, regrettably, come to realise how much I was missing back then.

their lived experience and social reality probably has much more in common with women and girls

Potentially trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman

I'd question this from a number of perspectives.

Firstly, biology is relevant to our argument - if not as "fundamentally"(!) central as some activists would have us believe! Eg. Consider this WI group being set up to compensate for TW no longer being members, to discuss "experiences of what it is to be a woman", or suchlike. Honestly, the only times I actually think of myself as being a woman rather than, simply, a human or an individual, tend to relate to what distinguishes me from the male sex class: certain functions, discrimination against me on the basis of the type of body I have and women's historical oppression, my proportionate physical vulnerability etc. Please note, this isn't about "sex organs", but, instead, the practical realities of being female in a world designed for males, up to and including not having a hope in hell of getting Grade 8 piano because of male-default keyboards (still resentful) or being able to bloody reach the microwave in my own flat or office (crazy!), or feeling able to challenge the male taxi drivers who ask if I'm married or try to bully me into paying extra, knowing I'm too small to oppose them and will leave the cab conscious that they know where I live. I'm honestly not sure how transwomen's "lived experience and social reality" aligns with this. This isn't to (popular "gotcha") present myself as a victim, any more than than a Black person discussing their experience of racism would be. In fact, in a world in which racist verbal micro-aggression are utter anathema, it astonishes me that women have to make this pre-emptive defence when describing the challenges they face!

Secondly, I think it's really important to recognise that "transwomen" is a wide-ranging umbrella term. This was very difficult for me to accept at first, as it isn't the popular media narrative and is very difficult to discuss in this context especially, involving, as it does, some unpleasant reading and corners of the internet. It's summed up very well in another MN thread called something like, "Where do people think all the transvestites have gone?" This group, previously accepted unquestioningly as, at best, a humiliating imitation of what it means to be female, and at worst, a potential risk to women and girls, has been subsumed into the trans umbrella. For them, it's not about dysphoria, but sexual fetish - and there are clearly many of them. Their own accounts are particularly interesting to read (eg. Debbie Hayton), if sometimes somewhat sexually explicit (google Andrea Long Chu, who may or may not fall into this group, whose description of what "she" thinks it means to be a woman certainly corresponds to aspects of this, and see if you can stomach this - "enriching" for us it ain't!) Looking at such men's reams of photos is rather less advisable! I honestly find it hard to put into words how viscerally distressing I find the suggestion that the "lived experience and social reality" of a man who identifies as trans for this reason in any way reflects my own.

This then leads us to another, different group - the deeply dysphoric, like your son. Here, things are much more complex, and I've a huge amount of sympathy for such individuals, particularly today, in fact, as they find out that organisations that unlawfully welcomed them for years are now ejecting them. I know quite a few currently trans-identifying children (I phrase that carefully, given desistance rates) and it distresses me to think how their needs have been misrepresented and undermined by an unthinking ideology that, in its authoritarian bent, demanded the impossible and unreasonable of women and girls in their name, and has, ironically, thereby done them lasting damage. A more open, democratic approach (google eg. "the Dentons document") could have avoided or mitigated what your child is currently experiencing. But even then, I truly don't see what this group has in common with me. Logically - and evidentially - their main (only?) way to signify their internal trans identity is by adopting external behaviours and features stereotypically or commonly associated with girls and women (whether joining Guides, or wearing a dress, or undergoing hormonal or cosmetic changes). And I don't want women - me - to be associated with any external behaviours and features, or classified according to these! And I do want us to retain the option of single-sex groups, for the reasons I give above. There are also some males in this group who take this approach to such an extreme (google Dylan Mulvaney) that they make your concept that "trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman" downright offensive to me.

Then, there's the issue of transmen and non binary individuals. Statistics indicate fairly clearly, to my mind, that a good proportion of girls, particular autistic and lesbian girls, are embracing these identities as they see "woman" and "female" become crushingly associated with external, often sexualised, appearance - in part because of the the umbrella term "transwomen" and all it entails, and for a thousand and one other depressing reasons (including the proliferation of porn, which factors into all this in the most disturbing of ways - Jo Bartosch is good on this). I want "woman" to be, simply, a practical and necessary descriptor that is 99.9% accurate in capturing a demographic of humans with particular needs... and is otherwise utterly irrelevant to who they are - to what they wear, or how they behave, what they can do etc.

As long as transwomen continue to dilute who and what women are, and women's rights - and society's understanding of the most fundamental, essential aspects of this - in a way that I feel risks reducing women to something external and wholly unrelated to (indeed, that is damaging to) our demographic, I will continue to speak out in a way that some may mistakenly interpret as anti-trans... but that is, quite simply, pro-woman.

Basically, all I ask is that our identity is validated, too, as distinct and worthwhile, and that it's not forcibly subsumed into something so different, so complex and, sometimes, so very starkly in opposition to our needs. Think of these trigger-warnings the BBC is giving before hosting a speaker who may misgender a transwoman! In some parallel universe somewhere, where women are valued in their own right, another BBC is giving a trigger warning to women each time they call a male "she", "woman" or "female", in recognition of how utterly unethical it is to redefine a whole portion of humanity according to the internal self-perception of the portion that has oppressed them for millennia. I mean, marital rape (woman-as-secondary-to-or-extension-of-husband) was outlawed only a few decades ago in the UK! We're not a part of males, subject to and shaped by their minds and wills.

Or at any rate, we shouldn't be.

Swipe left for the next trending thread