Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

you’re admitting that you speak in tropes and aren’t well versed on this subject. Bayswater know their stuff and don’t talk in transactivist jargon. It might be worth looking them up and helping your son rather than going along with all his demands.

Currently. Laws and sciences are changeable - in fact it's necessary to societies progress that they do change as human understanding shifts.

“I fundamentally disagree that murder is a crime”. Would sound ridiculous, no?

I don't know. I suppose she'd sleep with her friends? And yes, I would ensure that - in that situation - any other parents are aware of my child's sex / transgender status, just as I have done on playdates etc.

The thing is that your “legal and biological definition of girl” is incorrect. It’s not an opinion, you are simply legally and biologically inaccurate 🤷‍♀️

I'm in the dentist waiting room with them but we'll have to go back to school before long, so what else do I ask them?

We've got as far as "things they are happy doing" being a differentiating factor between boys and girls.

What else should I be asking them to help them identify their gender(s)?

An interesting website, thank you.

I'm genuinely not very activist, so of I'm quoting tropes that's probably a coincidence.

We fundamentally disagree on the legal/biological definition of "girl" so there's not much point in going round the houses again on that one.

Ok so in my specific example, which tent does a trans member sleep in, with their chosen or biological gender group? And are parents aware of these arrangements.

I'm not being goady these are specific concerns of parents.

Looking forward to hearing this too, for the first time.

"Unless you are wholly committed to sex-based rights, which are incredibly outdated and reductive".

Always interesting when the mask slips and the real agenda is exposed. It's reductive for women and girls to have boundaries from men. Reductive for women not to want to undress in front of random men. Reductive for lesbians to expect their same sex attraction to be respected etc etc etc.

That's a very revealing post.

A family member has a DSD and finds the idea that this might affect whether or not he's actually a man appallingly offensive.

Please try not to trample all over others who are different from you when arguing that sex and gender are different, or the same, or whatever it is you are even arguing....

that's the Doctor Upton argument!

OK, I'm out for now. You simply can't be reading (or at least have the capacity to reflect on?) our replies if you think the above.

I've already addressed intersex, and 2) is an astonishing claim to make in the light of everything I and others have posted.

It's not far off like reading a Jane Austen novel (I intentionally flatter us 😅), then proclaiming, "I loved the bit about the spaceship!"

Solid, could I suggest you quote to justify your claims in future posts of this nature? You've nothing to lose in doing so - if you can find the material you need, and explain how it supports your claim, it'll make those claims that bit more convincing, and show I'm wrong about the spaceships.

Well done in standing up for girls!

But yes, this is an excellent example of the destabilising of language for this group’s political gain.

I look at my child and feel sad and nervous for what's to come. But that's society - that's uncaring or scared or misunderstanding others. I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute.

No I firmly disagree, you have as an adult given your child unreasonable expectations based on your belief that gender stereotypes should supercede sex based rights.

I feel sad for your child that you continue to lie to him about what his preference for girly things should mean .

Why are you now leveraging people with differences of sex development into this discussion?

You really are now showing that you have spent far too long only reading transgender activist content. People with DSDs have asked to not be politically leveraged into these discussions as gotchas to prove points.

instagram is public so attracts virtue signalling.
Mumsnet is anonymous so attracts honesty.

People with DSDs are either male or female.

Single sex spaces matter where they matter. They dont matter where they dont matter.

Why does your son need to join the girl guides and not the scouts?

People with Differences of Sexual Development are either male or female. How dare you try to suggest they are other just to further your argument?!

Or maybe, the minority are here on Mumsnet?

“I'd much rather have a child be their authentic selves than repress core aspects of who they are.”

This is incoherent though. Because your child is not a girl because they are not a female child. Therefore they are not being ‘authentic’ in describing themselves as a girl.

This misuse of ‘authentic self’ has been a gender identity trope for a while. It also renders the word ‘authentic’ as meaningless because it has had the very opposite meaning attributed to the word.

But perhaps you should be speaking to Bayswater support group because in reading all your posts, you have been repeating activist trope which is meaningless and using their tactics all along. Perhaps you need an alternative source of support.

https://www.bayswatersupport.org.uk

Also, two new points that I'm genuinely interested in.

1. Where do intersex people fit in, in the world of sex-based rights?

1. The understanding of 'feminism' on this thread seems to echo many of the characteristics of the patriarchy - ie hierarchical, protectionist and traditional understandings or gender. I know many here believe same sex spaces matter more than anything else but does anyone else see the hypocrisy inherent in taking that "patriarchal feminist" position?

No they don't have the same problem, because as a mixed sex group, they have clear protocols around how mixed sex interaction should be handled.

The problem for GG is that they were pretending men can be women, so they aren't putting those proper protocols in place.

Minecraft is a boy and cookies is a girl. I mean, it's obvious, innit?

It's not scientific fact. That's effectively a rhetorical ploy drawing on things like differences of sexual development, hormonal and cosmetic treatments and cynical definitions of what sex actually is. They can waffle on about it for pages - and "they" includes, to be fair, a minority - to my understanding - of evolutionary biologists. But so what? There are a minority of humans that have been abducted by aliens, and a minority of doctors who swear off vaccines - praise be for human variety and interest. But there is also a consensus on these things. In any case, for this one, your own knowledge that you were born of a female and a male, and so too was every. single. other. human on the planet, is, frankly, all that you need here.