Page 16 | Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

CohensDiamondTeeth · 2025-12-03T07:41:30+00:00

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up. There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page {mention:LostMySocks} posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention. Link to the first thread here: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5453618-girl-guides-are-now-girl-only?page=1 Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet]] The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone. *^{mention:Iamwhoiamwhoareyou} · ^*^Yesterday 14:41^ ^Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this^ ^EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -^ ^As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.^ ^Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.^ ^Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.^ ^From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.^ ^There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.^ ^Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.^ ^Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.^ ^You can find [[https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/information-for-volunteers/updates-for-our-members/equality-diversity-policy-statement/?utm_campaign=1859632_EDI%20update%20for%20parents%202%20December%202025&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigitalemails our full statement]] and [[https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/information-for-volunteers/updates-for-our-members/equality-diversity-policy-statement/?utm_campaign=1859632_EDI%20update%20for%20parents%202%20December%202025&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigitalemails updated policy]] on our website.^ ^We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.^ ^While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.^ ^If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.^ ^Contact [[https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/ wellbeing@girlguiding.org.uk]] or 020 7532 3970^ ^All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.^ ^[[https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/mango-data-privacy-policy.pdf?utm_campaign=1859632_EDI%20update%20for%20parents%202%20December%202025&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigitalemails Find out more]], including how this team will handle personal data.^ ^Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)^

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2025 10:40

I find it interesting that we don't ever/ often seem to get parents of trans identifying females on these threads telling us that sex based rights are reductive.

It's almost as though they know that their daughters will face discrimination based on their sexed bodies.

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 10:38

truthsayers · 04/12/2025 10:35

I’m confused. Is your child a biological male or a biological female? I’m talking about what’s on their birth certificate, not how they identify.

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Biological male.

Trans girls are born male, trans boys are born female.

Unless they are intersex, in which case I guess they align with the gender identity that fits them best.

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 10:36

shesaysshestiredoflifeshemustbetiredofsomething · 04/12/2025 10:33

Do you mean transphobia, or do you just mean pointing out the truth? Children will repeat what they're told, whereas adults have the capacity to work things out for themselves - this "learned behaviour" is just learning the reality of the world.

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No I mean transphobia - othering her because she is a trans girl. Some older boys asked her if she used to be called "x". She was a bit uncertain but told them - and that so far has been that. I wouldn't say, in that example, it's transphobia.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 10:36

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 04/12/2025 09:01

Whittle suggested the ‘sturdy pyjamas’??

I don’t know where to start with it.

I should be shocked, but, I couldn’t really have a lower opinion of her already.

Actually, I do question my recollection about the pyjamas... I am sure I heard her say this in an interview though...

truthsayers · 04/12/2025 10:35

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 10:33

I haven't led my child anywhere, I tried very hard not to and pushed back as much as I could, without causing her serious psychological upset. I wish you could speak to her, see her in action.

It wasn't just a few pictures, come on I've said that now - I've written how it was process that developed over a year and social transition only once it became untenable for us to do otherwise without her living a lie.

I know, I know - apparently I've set her up to fail, the lie is that she's not a boy etc.

I didn't state that the patriarchy is more acute for anyone - it's a problem for everyone, men included. I presume you're referring to trans women as men in your point - so yes, in general in the UK, I would say that currently the patriarchy is a bigger problem for transwoman than most female women.

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I’m confused. Is your child a biological male or a biological female? I’m talking about what’s on their birth certificate, not how they identify.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 10:34

Skippythebeercan · 04/12/2025 09:53

Ok so in my specific example, which tent does a trans member sleep in, with their chosen or biological gender group? And are parents aware of these arrangements.

I'm not being goady these are specific concerns of parents.

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You are not being goady, Skippy.

The answer seems to be depend though. We have had a scouting person (leader or parent???) tell us that sometimes, with parents consent, accommodations can be mixed sex in scouts. However, that information is supposedly upfront when there are no children with transgender identities involved.

Certainly in GG, no parent or female child is to be given the full information for them to be able to make the decision for themselves (and a child of a certain age cannot consent in any case). I too wonder if this is also the case in Scouts.

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 10:33

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/12/2025 10:13

"I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute."

I'm trying to catch up and there's a ridiculous amount of stuff I'd like to say, but this is some incredible misogyny on display here!

You've just stated that the patriarchy is more acute, as in worse, for boys than it is girls.

Honestly!

Also you can encourage your child to be whoever they are, but it's sheer insanity to lie to them and tell them they can ignore biological reality. You may as well take them to a very high spot after telling them they can fly, and expect to ignore gravity!

Only this is worse because in non-analogy land, where you ignore biological reality, not only do you harm the child you lied to, you're harming and taking away from all girls and women.

It's all emotional manipulation, side stepping questions, a bit of transphobia ("Women = females and trans women" this is "transphobic" towards trans men, and a lot of misogyny from a self proclaimed feminist.

You still haven't answered my (ridiculous amount of) questions from earlier, but specifically how exactly does a child who can't even talk yet(?!) indicate to you the identify with the female character they have apparently seen? Pointing vaguely isn't cutting it. I'm still incredibly shocked that if this is for real you have lead your boy down this road from before he could talk.

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I haven't led my child anywhere, I tried very hard not to and pushed back as much as I could, without causing her serious psychological upset. I wish you could speak to her, see her in action.

It wasn't just a few pictures, come on I've said that now - I've written how it was process that developed over a year and social transition only once it became untenable for us to do otherwise without her living a lie.

I know, I know - apparently I've set her up to fail, the lie is that she's not a boy etc.

I didn't state that the patriarchy is more acute for anyone - it's a problem for everyone, men included. I presume you're referring to trans women as men in your point - so yes, in general in the UK, I would say that currently the patriarchy is a bigger problem for transwoman than most female women.

shesaysshestiredoflifeshemustbetiredofsomething · 04/12/2025 10:33

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 10:14

Thanks, Catiette. I'll look and reflect more, it's good to have as wide a set of opinions on all of this as possible.

I suppose so much of this comes down to societal acceptance in a way that is safe for everyone, which is always going to be hard to achieve.

One thing I would say from my experience on this is: please try to see with the eyes of a child. My child has experienced very little transphobia from other children - it's mainly adults that feel the need to put up barriers, insist on telling her she's something other than what she feels etc - which suggests it's a learned behaviour.

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Do you mean transphobia, or do you just mean pointing out the truth? Children will repeat what they're told, whereas adults have the capacity to work things out for themselves - this "learned behaviour" is just learning the reality of the world.

TheKeatingFive · 04/12/2025 10:30

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 04/12/2025 10:24

What Solid is also telling her son, is that the rest of society will maintain the lie.

Exactly

It was not fair of Solid to do this. Not fair on her own child, because the world will not see them as female and will not be compelled to lie about that, so her child is being set up for a lifetime of frustration and confusion.

Also not fair on other children, particularly girls, who are being asked to diminish their own experience of femaleness to accommodate this boy, to lower their own boundaries to accommodate this boy, and put their own needs behind his. None of that is right.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 10:30

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2025 09:52

"Unless you are wholly committed to sex-based rights, which are incredibly outdated and reductive".

Always interesting when the mask slips and the real agenda is exposed. It's reductive for women and girls to have boundaries from men. Reductive for women not to want to undress in front of random men. Reductive for lesbians to expect their same sex attraction to be respected etc etc etc.

That's a very revealing post.

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Absolutely, it is a revealing post.

I think that this entire discussion on this thread has revolved around the lack of understanding of safeguarding, which includes consent and healthy boundaries for children and women, and the destabilisation of language.

Of course, these are very much intertwined.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 10:27

Catiette · 04/12/2025 09:50

OK, I'm out for now. You simply can't be reading (or at least have the capacity to reflect on?) our replies if you think the above.

I've already addressed intersex, and 2) is an astonishing claim to make in the light of everything I and others have posted.

It's not far off like reading a Jane Austen novel (I intentionally flatter us 😅), then proclaiming, "I loved the bit about the spaceship!"

Solid, could I suggest you quote to justify your claims in future posts of this nature? You've nothing to lose in doing so - if you can find the material you need, and explain how it supports your claim, it'll make those claims that bit more convincing, and show I'm wrong about the spaceships.

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I think we have crossed posts again, Catiette. I have just read this and I think some of us are on the same page.

@SolidMam I also think that you should start quoting references to support your claims.

It might also stop people identifying your posts as being purely emotional reasoning driven. Or maybe they are only emotionally driven and you are perfectly happy in arguing from that stance. I would suggest it is a weak position but everyone is free to defend their position however they see fit.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2025 10:24

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 04/12/2025 10:24

What Solid is also telling her son, is that the rest of society will maintain the lie.

Exactly. And they won’t.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 04/12/2025 10:24

What Solid is also telling her son, is that the rest of society will maintain the lie.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 10:22

YOUGOV UK TRACKER COMPARISONS

The following is the data from UK trackers from 2018 - 2024 tracking public opinion as part of their series of 'Where does the British public stand on transgender rights'. 2018 results included where they are available.

Here are some of the results that relate to the needs for female people to have single sex provisions:

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 27 [16] 12% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 14%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 25%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 17%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 58%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 25%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024 *this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 29%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 18%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 55%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 28%
Don't know 26 [25] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

There was no surgery question was asked in 2018

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...
Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 26 [25] 19%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 63%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 17%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 23%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 60%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 19%
Don't know 27 [25] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

And finally:

This question was also not asked in 2018

Do you believe that allowing transgender women to use spaces reserved for women, such as women's toilets or changing rooms, does or does not present a genuine risk of harm to women? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Does not present a genuine risk of harm 39 [32] 25%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 14%
Does present a genuine risk of harm 32 [39] 55%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 29 [29] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender^data^2018.pdf

^https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgenderdata2020.pdf^

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/InternalTransgenderIssues^220720finalextraXbreak^FINAL.pdf

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov^-Transgenderstudy^2024.pdf

There are other polls from around the world linked on this thread below:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5445880-statistics-poll-evidence-archive-thread?reply=148913457

There is a large difference between people who believe people who describe themselves as transgender 'living' in their gender and the practical applications. When it comes to actually answering questions that explore what that means, the answers swing towards excluding male people from female single sex provisions.

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_Transgender_study_2024.pdf

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 10:21

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 09:45

Or maybe, the minority are here on Mumsnet?

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I believe I posted on the other thread, the polling for the UK, done by an independent polling consultancy, that has shown this to be an incorrect perception. Maybe you missed it. The poster who I posted it for certainly couldn't acknowledge or discuss the information, they appeared to not even understand it. But I will post it here again and I and others will be happy to answer any questions about the polling. However, as always, I suggest you drill down into these stats for yourself (most of us have already done this for ourselves).

The polling has also been consistent with other countries such as Canada, Australia, NZ and USA when specific questions are asked.

In short, the views you are encountering here on MN represent the majority within the population.

I will post the UK poll below.

Ihatetomatoes · 04/12/2025 10:17

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2025 09:49

I look at my child and feel sad and nervous for what's to come. But that's society - that's uncaring or scared or misunderstanding others. I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute.

No I firmly disagree, you have as an adult given your child unreasonable expectations based on your belief that gender stereotypes should supercede sex based rights.

I feel sad for your child that you continue to lie to him about what his preference for girly things should mean .

This. Why do parents lie to their children. Tell the truth, that he can live as his version of what he thinks a girl or a woman is, but he could never actually change into one. It's not possible. Tell the truth.

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 10:14

Catiette · 04/12/2025 09:59

Just to exemplify what I mean in my last request that you quote other posters to refute them, Solid, this is a great example, above, from Helle.

Whether or not you agree with her, she offers a strong argument: we have a precise quote from you under the spotlight, direct and detailed analysis of it (bit by bit with several sub-quotes), an explanation of where your misunderstanding may originate and a link to further reading to support this.

This approach is bread and butter to regular MN FWR posters, and I'd argue that's it's exactly because our case is so very strong that it's so very easy to support it in this way.

I also think it may be relevant here to say that this is also because we also genuinely believe in our case. Your cognitive dissonance and repeated contradictions - again, fairly convincingly challenged quite a few times, in much the way Helle posts above - makes me wonder if you really do believe in your own.

I really do sympathise with that emotional tug to support your child (I've tried to be gender neutral here to show as much respect to their beliefs as I feel able to myself, but have slipped a few times throughout the thread - apologies). But truly, the best way to do so is not the activist propaganda you're parrotting, but (I know, I know, speaking of parrotting 🦜) to read, read and read some more, including our posts, an outside so-called trans-supportive circles. We are, ourselves, very protective indeed of trans-identifying kids, with a great deal to offer that, having read and reflected on, you're more than entitled to reject. But you're clearly not reading and reflecting yet!

(I know this may sound patronising - please excuse that, it's born of frustration and a genuine desire to communicate).

Edited

Show quote history

Thanks, Catiette. I'll look and reflect more, it's good to have as wide a set of opinions on all of this as possible.

I suppose so much of this comes down to societal acceptance in a way that is safe for everyone, which is always going to be hard to achieve.

One thing I would say from my experience on this is: please try to see with the eyes of a child. My child has experienced very little transphobia from other children - it's mainly adults that feel the need to put up barriers, insist on telling her she's something other than what she feels etc - which suggests it's a learned behaviour.

Original poster

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/12/2025 10:13

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 09:27

Just ask them when they feel happiest. When they are most "themselves." If they have anything burning inside them that they want to experiment with - there seems general agreement on this thread that gender roles are quite fluid.

If something doesn't feel right with how and who they are, they will know.

Then - when they feel they can fully express themselves - back them up the hilt in the face of a world that isn't designed for them. Expect bumps. Expect naysayers. Turn up for them.

I'm sure that will feel wishy washy or unscientific in the hard material reality of sex based rights but in this world, I'd much rather have a child be their authentic selves than repress core aspects of who they are. The path will be harder but that's the path.

I look at my child and feel sad and nervous for what's to come. But that's society - that's uncaring or scared or misunderstanding others. I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute.

Show quote history

"I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute."

I'm trying to catch up and there's a ridiculous amount of stuff I'd like to say, but this is some incredible misogyny on display here!

You've just stated that the patriarchy is more acute, as in worse, for boys than it is girls.

Honestly!

Also you can encourage your child to be whoever they are, but it's sheer insanity to lie to them and tell them they can ignore biological reality. You may as well take them to a very high spot after telling them they can fly, and expect to ignore gravity!

Only this is worse because in non-analogy land, where you ignore biological reality, not only do you harm the child you lied to, you're harming and taking away from all girls and women.

It's all emotional manipulation, side stepping questions, a bit of transphobia ("Women = females and trans women" this is "transphobic" towards trans men, and a lot of misogyny from a self proclaimed feminist.

You still haven't answered my (ridiculous amount of) questions from earlier, but specifically how exactly does a child who can't even talk yet(?!) indicate to you the identify with the female character they have apparently seen? Pointing vaguely isn't cutting it. I'm still incredibly shocked that if this is for real you have lead your boy down this road from before he could talk.

OP posts:

Ihatetomatoes · 04/12/2025 10:11

rubyslippers · 03/12/2025 07:43

Brick by brick the whole house of delusion is slowly being pulled down
brava to those who initiated the safeguarding questions at GG

This.

The ideology of trans is a delution. Captured individuals promoting this to 'be kind' whilst being unkind to real women and girls.

The lot must fall down and proper mental health support for children, who've been damaged by this ideology.

Prosecutions for those pushing the damage as ok, puberty blockers to children, digust me. Parents who affirm rather than gently use biological reality, need to think of the future for their children who have been sold a lie. They are contributing to the mental damage. It's all very sad.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 10:11

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 09:55

An interesting website, thank you.

I'm genuinely not very activist, so of I'm quoting tropes that's probably a coincidence.

We fundamentally disagree on the legal/biological definition of "girl" so there's not much point in going round the houses again on that one.

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I am sure that you have probably picked up the tactics that you have, intentionally or not, been duplicating and their discussion points because you will no doubt have been reading content to be informed. This is understandable. However, you have resorted to personal attacks on this thread and you don't seem to be registering that you have been doing it. Perhaps this is your normal approach.

Many of us on this thread have had these discussions for years. Quite a number of parents on MN that get involved in these discussions have had people in their lives with transgender identities.

I am not sure that you understand though just how deep the destabilisation of language has gone. You are here on this thread telling us your personal definition of words. If every person adopts their personal definition of words, it makes communication meaningless. There will be no accuracy.

This has been actually documented in the UK as a being a deliberate strategy by extreme transgender activists, those who demand the prioritisation of gender identity even when sex matters. There is a document called the Denton's Report that detailed the long term strategies.

There is also a Scottish female transgender activist, Morton, who was very upfront - she said that the strategy was to get male people accepted into female prisons based on them saying they were women. And once that was achieved, everything would fall into place.

Well, the lobby groups achieved that (to disastrous effect) and we are seeing the result in the filtering down. They aimed at prisons because to them that was the ultimate goal. If they could convince the world that male prisoners should share cells with female prisoners based on that male person's declaration - they felt no other organisation or group would have any wiggle room to not follow suit.

I can link you up to several strategy papers, including the Denton's report, if you don't believe this. I know that Catiette mentioned it too.

The destabilisation of language started decades ago. However, the implications, as you can see are immense and destructive. You believe it is progression, yet you don't seem to be able to articulate how this is progressive or give any depth of answers to the questions many posters have asked.

Has this caused you any dissonance at all? This lack of you being able to do more than give emotionally reasoned answers? Of answering in platitudes and empty sound bites?

Has it not raised more questions in your mind where you feel that you really don't have a depth of understanding of the back ground of this issue that you attack people to defend?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2025 10:09

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 09:55

An interesting website, thank you.

I'm genuinely not very activist, so of I'm quoting tropes that's probably a coincidence.

We fundamentally disagree on the legal/biological definition of "girl" so there's not much point in going round the houses again on that one.

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Yet you're arguing that women and girls expecting to undress in privacy from men, that single sex showers, hospital wards and sport are "outdated and reductive". That's a very niche trope to use.
And one I'm afraid to say is often promoted by a subset of very predatory adults. (That's not an accusation btw, it's an observation about the type of people who argue that safeguarding / safety boundaries are unnecessary for girls and women)

As Catiette has suggested above, you may want to read more widely abour safeguarding, women's rights and feminism before telling women that expecting privacy and safety from males is outdated and reductive.

IAxolotlQuestions · 04/12/2025 10:07

Skippythebeercan · 04/12/2025 09:35

I'm a bit late to this thread. I'm a Brownie leader who has been a bit fed up with girlguiding for a while. But I have to say I'm very cross with the scouts for their reaction which seems to be "join us we're inclusive" but supreme court judgement aside I can't see how they don't have the same safeguarding issues as Girlguiding. So for all ages but particularly at for teenage members what happens if a trans member goes on camp. Which biological gender tent do they sleep in, can parents be consulted? Girlguiding had a lot of criticism for their handling of this issue but I can't see how Scouting doesn't have exactly the same safeguarding problem.

They have the same problem and when I checked a couple of years back they were steadfastly ignoring it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2025 10:04

Also, most people also think that it’s not possible to change sex, so what “shift in understanding” do you imagine to have occurred @SolidMam?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2025 10:02

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 09:59

Currently. Laws and sciences are changeable - in fact it's necessary to societies progress that they do change as human understanding shifts.

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But whether you disagree with the law or not, it’s the law nonetheless. The Supreme Court has clarified that for the purposes of the EA 2010, the cornerstone piece of equality legislation, “trans women” are men.

Catiette · 04/12/2025 09:59

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 09:44

“I'd much rather have a child be their authentic selves than repress core aspects of who they are.”

This is incoherent though. Because your child is not a girl because they are not a female child. Therefore they are not being ‘authentic’ in describing themselves as a girl.

This misuse of ‘authentic self’ has been a gender identity trope for a while. It also renders the word ‘authentic’ as meaningless because it has had the very opposite meaning attributed to the word.

But perhaps you should be speaking to Bayswater support group because in reading all your posts, you have been repeating activist trope which is meaningless and using their tactics all along. Perhaps you need an alternative source of support.

https://www.bayswatersupport.org.uk

Just to exemplify what I mean in my last request that you quote other posters to refute them, Solid, this is a great example, above, from Helle.

Whether or not you agree with her, she offers a strong argument: we have a precise quote from you under the spotlight, direct and detailed analysis of it (bit by bit with several sub-quotes), an explanation of where your misunderstanding may originate and a link to further reading to support this.

This approach is bread and butter to regular MN FWR posters, and I'd argue that's it's exactly because our case is so very strong that it's so very easy to support it in this way.

I also think it may be relevant here to say that this is also because we also genuinely believe in our case. Your cognitive dissonance and repeated contradictions - again, fairly convincingly challenged quite a few times, in much the way Helle posts above - makes me wonder if you really do believe in your own.

I really do sympathise with that emotional tug to support your child (I've tried to be gender neutral here to show as much respect to their beliefs as I feel able to myself, but have slipped a few times throughout the thread - apologies). But truly, the best way to do so is not the activist propaganda you're parrotting, but (I know, I know, speaking of parrotting 🦜) to read, read and read some more, including our posts, an outside so-called trans-supportive circles. We are, ourselves, very protective indeed of trans-identifying kids, with a great deal to offer that, having read and reflected on, you're more than entitled to reject. But you're clearly not reading and reflecting yet!

(I know this may sound patronising - please excuse that, it's born of frustration and a genuine desire to communicate).