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Original poster

Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

741 replies

CohensDiamondTeeth · 03/12/2025 07:41

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/mango-data-privacy-policy.pdf?utm_campaign=1859632_EDI%20update%20for%20parents%202%20December%202025&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigitalemails

OP posts:
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24
Throckmorton · 04/12/2025 12:39

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 12:32

In terms of commonality I would say they are both girls because they know they are - though I don't want to presume that of your GNC child.

What did your child say to the CAMHS professional?

But obviously, I have different definitions of terms.

Woman = females (born female) + transwomen (born male) + (presumably, I'm still waiting for clarification when it comes to sex-based rights?) intersex people

Men = males (born male) + trans men (born female) + intersex people

As for characteristics, well that could be practically anything...does yours like football? Mine does. Maybe they could have a kick about.

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@SolidMam Are you actually reading the posts replying to you on "intersex"? STOP being offensive to people with DSD!

medievalpenny · 04/12/2025 12:38

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 12:32

In terms of commonality I would say they are both girls because they know they are - though I don't want to presume that of your GNC child.

What did your child say to the CAMHS professional?

But obviously, I have different definitions of terms.

Woman = females (born female) + transwomen (born male) + (presumably, I'm still waiting for clarification when it comes to sex-based rights?) intersex people

Men = males (born male) + trans men (born female) + intersex people

As for characteristics, well that could be practically anything...does yours like football? Mine does. Maybe they could have a kick about.

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That's not a definition. You clearly cannot define the words you are abusing, but at least you are peaking people along the way.

On the other hand, pretending that your son is a girl is the literal definition of "living a lie".

As for your offensive comments about intersex people. I'm not dignifying that with a response. I would expect someone who thinks they're so much better informed than everyone else to be aware of how ignorant and offensive those comments are and that intersex people have repeatedly asked for TRAs to stop abusing them as some kind of "gotcha".

TheKeatingFive · 04/12/2025 12:38

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 12:32

In terms of commonality I would say they are both girls because they know they are - though I don't want to presume that of your GNC child.

What did your child say to the CAMHS professional?

But obviously, I have different definitions of terms.

Woman = females (born female) + transwomen (born male) + (presumably, I'm still waiting for clarification when it comes to sex-based rights?) intersex people

Men = males (born male) + trans men (born female) + intersex people

As for characteristics, well that could be practically anything...does yours like football? Mine does. Maybe they could have a kick about.

Show quote history

In terms of commonality I would say they are both girls because they know they are

How do they know they are?

I know I'm a woman because of my biological reality. How does a man know he's a woman?

Namelessnelly · 04/12/2025 12:36

So what is the definition of a transwoman? What do a woman and a male with a trans identity have in common that make them both women? And don’t even drag “feelings” into it. That’s the most sexist drivel ever.

Kleeneze · 04/12/2025 12:36

And why have so many middle class, educated women fallen for this nonsense and are seeking to affirm it? That’s what I find odd. Surely it’s the educated, middle class mums who usually run in horror from the stereotypical pink and blue outfits for babies? Why have they fallen for the tosh that if you like dolls and pink you must be a trans girl, rather than a boy who likes dolls and pink?

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 12:32

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2025 11:54

I'm just conscious that I'm bringing lived experience as a parent to this debate - and I'm not convinced that many people on this thread actually engage with trans people or children day to day - although there's a lot of advice to me about how to raise my child

I have lived experience of being the parent of a gender non conforming child who was asked by CAMHS if she was really a boy.

I have chosen a different path to you.

It is ridiculous to claim none of us have lived experience.

And you STILL haven't answered my questions about what commonality your child shares with mine which makes them both girls? My daughter doesn't like/do / wear 'girl gendered' things but she most definitely is a girl. So what attributes does your son share with my daughter which makes them both girls. Clearly they are both human and gender none conforming. I would really appreciate an answer to this question as my daughter shares being of the female sex with all female children (girls) regardless of their personalities and preferences, but I cannot think of a single things she shares with your son that makes them both girls.

In terms of commonality I would say they are both girls because they know they are - though I don't want to presume that of your GNC child.

What did your child say to the CAMHS professional?

But obviously, I have different definitions of terms.

Woman = females (born female) + transwomen (born male) + (presumably, I'm still waiting for clarification when it comes to sex-based rights?) intersex people

Men = males (born male) + trans men (born female) + intersex people

As for characteristics, well that could be practically anything...does yours like football? Mine does. Maybe they could have a kick about.

Original poster
CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/12/2025 12:31

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 12:28

I think it is always dangerous to retro fit something a pre-verbal or toddler child does to fit and justify a decision that is based on philosophical belief rather than something that can be medically diagnosed with biological markers.

It is a setting up a confirmation bias.

Yes.

I hadn't considered that angle, but that's an incredibly good point!

Perhaps if that is what has happened, and if she is able to really do the introspection necessary to figure out if that is what happened, my bullet points in reply to @Catiette might be useful to her.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 12:28

I think it is always dangerous to retro fit something a pre-verbal or toddler child does to fit and justify a decision that is based on philosophical belief rather than something that can be medically diagnosed with biological markers.

It is a setting up a confirmation bias.

Original poster
CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/12/2025 12:27

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 08:28

A pre-verbal child pointing to pictures was interpreted as the child declaring their gender identity?

That is up there with Diane Ehrensaft’s cues of boys unsnapping onsies to make a skirt and girls pulling out hair clips.

Sometimes children simply don’t like the feel of material around their legs or having anything in their hair Diane. And doing it three times doesn’t make it a ‘gender message’.

Edited

I'm wondering if, back in the pre-verbal child days, @SolidMam watched something like this and thought "Aha!".

I'm also concerned (again if this is real), that there is an autistic (says solid), possibly gay boy there who is not "boy-ing" properly as far as some people are concerned, so he must be made a "girl" to account for the liking pink and not wanting to rough and tumble with the more boisterous boys.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2025 12:27

Namelessnelly · 04/12/2025 12:23

Oh it is did we ever get a definition of woman that includes males?

Show quote history

I'm having an epic fail uploading that image with Barbie at one end of the scale and GI Joe at the other!

No I still haven't been told what my daughter has in common with @SolidMam's son which makes them both girls.

I am fairly certain that I know the reason for this.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 12:24

"It's posters like this one, more than gender critical posters themselves, that have solidified my concerns."

It is also discussions with people with transgender identities themselves (which apparently we don't have in our lives despite many of us saying clearly that we do last time on either this or the previous thread we were accused on not knowing).

It wasn't until I engaged in on line discussions with adult male people who declared they were women (and some who had done since childhood) that my concerns were really solidified, to use your term. Those discussions clarified my thinking.

The points they used are similar enough to the points and pivots of Solid's. It is almost like a script these days.

Namelessnelly · 04/12/2025 12:23

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2025 12:22

All this talk of kids pointing to pictures bring this to mind...,

Remember when this was used by Mermaids?

It is ALL about gender stereotypes.

Edited

Oh it is did we ever get a definition of woman that includes males?

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2025 12:22

All this talk of kids pointing to pictures bring this to mind...,

Remember when this was used by Mermaids?

It is ALL about gender stereotypes.

Namelessnelly · 04/12/2025 12:19

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 10:33

I haven't led my child anywhere, I tried very hard not to and pushed back as much as I could, without causing her serious psychological upset. I wish you could speak to her, see her in action.

It wasn't just a few pictures, come on I've said that now - I've written how it was process that developed over a year and social transition only once it became untenable for us to do otherwise without her living a lie.

I know, I know - apparently I've set her up to fail, the lie is that she's not a boy etc.

I didn't state that the patriarchy is more acute for anyone - it's a problem for everyone, men included. I presume you're referring to trans women as men in your point - so yes, in general in the UK, I would say that currently the patriarchy is a bigger problem for transwoman than most female women.

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Are you kidding me? The patriarchy is worse for men than for women! How absolutely dare you! I thought you were a feminist. Apparently that’s another word you have your own definition of.

LostMySocks · 04/12/2025 12:19

ByShyRaven · 04/12/2025 08:41

I do yes. And I understand the petition is unlikely to do anything. But it still important for people to put a voice to signify unhappiness that some people feel as society becomes less and less tolerant of the other.

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I see a lot of traction on Facebook with people signing this who have nothing to do with Guiding or young people. It just feels like an internet pile on by a lot of men wanting to erase the rights of women and girls.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 12:18

HumanWrongs · 04/12/2025 11:58

I must say that reading this thread, I had some sympathy for the mum of a transgirl, even though I fundamentally disagree with her. But upon reading her posts further and further, my goodness I'm beginning to think "This is batshit!!" Honestly, it's almost like being contrary for contrary sake.

Should we then have female-women and male-women if women cannot be women and transwomen cannot just be transwomen??

So if on the news a reporter mentions a woman was xyz, do viewers then go 'do they mean female or male?'

If at a hospital, a medical report says a 'woman', doctors have to start looking further to know if it means female or male?

Why is an assigned word (transwoman) not enough for a male who has chosen to be something else - why must they co-opt the term (woman) that is already in use?

I don't get this. It’s utter entitlement! It's bullying! It's unacceptable!

Be a transwoman and use that term so that necessary people (doctors, etc) know who they're dealing with. A woman should be and is reserved for actual women (The fact that i have to qualify it with "actual" is ridiculous too). You (general you) serioulsy don't care about girls who will grow up to be women if you insist in the opposite.

Ah... but see... this is the 2nd thread. Most of us went through that in the first thread so we already had a head start to reach that point. 😁

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 12:16

TheKeatingFive · 04/12/2025 12:05

That's a difficult question to answer.

Medically, unfortunately not great. Her time spent taking testosterone has resulted in long term health problems, even though she has long stopped taking it. Her doctors don't seem to be able to tell her if these will abate in time. Thankfully she never had surgery.

Emotionally/mentally things are eventually looking up. She had considerable mental health issues that transitioning did not solve. Immediately post transition, she was in a very dark place indeed. But she seems to have made a lot of progress lately, has a therapist she likes/trusts. I feel she's turned a corner.

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I'm glad to hear it, I hope she continues to improve.

potpourree · 04/12/2025 12:09

It's posters like this one, more than gender critical posters themselves, that have solidified my concerns.

Exactly. I said right at the start of the thread that my assumption is that what determines, to her, whether someone is a boy or girl is harmful gender stereotypes, but I was happy to be corrected.

On no occasion has she been willing to even tell us what she thinks the difference is. It's got to be rooted in sexism. The unwillingness to state otherwise, while trampling over people with DSDs and neurodiverse people, just shows how harmful and unwilling to face up to their own beliefs these people are.

All while telling us we have to accept it but we're not allowed to try and understand it.

Original poster
CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/12/2025 12:08

Catiette · 04/12/2025 11:57

Just to be entirely fair to Solid, I can kind of see what she may be saying in the pointing anecdote. I'm understanding it, most likely, as a kind of

  • kid points at princesses when 4, and parent/s remark on it but do and think nothing more, then
  • kid subsequently persists in ways parent/s interpret as identifying as female, and parents recall pointing as evidence supporting this

But even this chronology still leaves space for our very real concerns about subliminal messaging and confirmation bias etc. in trans-identifying kids, and nurture appearing to suppress natural inclination in some cases (again, see the Cass clinician whistle-blowers - and irresponsible jokers - who, we've been told, called the Tavistock a gay-conversion clinic of sorts).

Show quote history

I can imagine lots of things. What I'd really like is for SolidMam to explain in her own words exactly what happened and how she came to the conclusion that her child, who remember was unable to talk at that point was capable of the complex thought process that:

  1. Saw and was looking specifically at the female character his mum was pointing at, and not something else
  2. Recognised the character being pointed out as a female (How? Us adults can't be sure of anyone's sex really according to GI, and anyway that doesn't take into account that we shouldn't assume someone's gender identity aligns with their sex "assigned" at birth. The child may have been identifying as a trans man for all anyone knows!)
  3. Recognised the difference between himself and this female character (adult character? Child character? Pre-verbal child character?)
  4. "Identified" as the sex the character being pointed at, as opposed to his own biological sex. Identified as? What exactly does that mean?
  5. Conveyed all this incredibly complex thinking without being able to speak a word to his mum (or both parents IDK)
  6. Was persistent in these non-verbal assertions of their inherent knowledge of their own gender identity to the point that his mum/parents have socially transitioned him

I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph!

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 12:05

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 11:56

Also can I get an answer as to how intersex people fit into a purely sex-based philosophy and divide?

In those cases, won't some people always be forced to lie or pretend that they are something that they aren't?

You seem ill informed about 'intersex' people.

You don't seem to have taken on board anything that anyone has said about them.

People with differences of sex development are either male or female due to the categorisation using criteria based on the gamete production their body has been formed around producing, regardless of whether their body produces those gametes or ever has or ever will.

The term 'intersex' is actually a political term and it is not the term that is used now for the group of medical conditions that you refer to.

No human has ever produce both gametes. Many humans have never produce a gamete but still have the body formation that becomes clear with further medical investigations.

If you are genuinely interested in this discussion, please start a thread. I would encourage you to start it on the FWR board where there are plenty of people with experience and knowledge to help you clarify your thinking on this.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights

However, politically leveraging of this group of people to destabilise sex based language is not kind, tolerant or any of the things that you seem to wish to be considered.

Sex & gender discussions - women's rights | Mumsnet

This is a space for civil and mutually respectful conversation for discussions about sex and gender identity.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights

TheKeatingFive · 04/12/2025 12:05

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 11:58

I'm interested - how are they doing?

Show quote history

That's a difficult question to answer.

Medically, unfortunately not great. Her time spent taking testosterone has resulted in long term health problems, even though she has long stopped taking it. Her doctors don't seem to be able to tell her if these will abate in time. Thankfully she never had surgery.

Emotionally/mentally things are eventually looking up. She had considerable mental health issues that transitioning did not solve. Immediately post transition, she was in a very dark place indeed. But she seems to have made a lot of progress lately, has a therapist she likes/trusts. I feel she's turned a corner.

Shedmistress · 04/12/2025 12:04

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 11:56

Also can I get an answer as to how intersex people fit into a purely sex-based philosophy and divide?

In those cases, won't some people always be forced to lie or pretend that they are something that they aren't?

Are you able to give an answer as to why your son wanted to join the girl guides and not the scouts?

Catiette · 04/12/2025 12:03

HumanWrongs · 04/12/2025 11:58

I must say that reading this thread, I had some sympathy for the mum of a transgirl, even though I fundamentally disagree with her. But upon reading her posts further and further, my goodness I'm beginning to think "This is batshit!!" Honestly, it's almost like being contrary for contrary sake.

Should we then have female-women and male-women if women cannot be women and transwomen cannot just be transwomen??

So if on the news a reporter mentions a woman was xyz, do viewers then go 'do they mean female or male?'

If at a hospital, a medical report says a 'woman', doctors have to start looking further to know if it means female or male?

Why is an assigned word (transwoman) not enough for a male who has chosen to be something else - why must they co-opt the term (woman) that is already in use?

I don't get this. It’s utter entitlement! It's bullying! It's unacceptable!

Be a transwoman and use that term so that necessary people (doctors, etc) know who they're dealing with. A woman should be and is reserved for actual women (The fact that i have to qualify it with "actual" is ridiculous too). You (general you) serioulsy don't care about girls who will grow up to be women if you insist in the opposite.

Your opening paragraph is exactly what I find so tragic about all this. It's posters like this one, more than gender critical posters themselves, that have solidified my concerns.

As I say above, the movement is harming not just female people, but also those it professes to protect.

potpourree · 04/12/2025 12:02

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 11:56

Also can I get an answer as to how intersex people fit into a purely sex-based philosophy and divide?

In those cases, won't some people always be forced to lie or pretend that they are something that they aren't?

What disorders are you referring to? "Intersex" isn't really used to specify.

Kleeneze · 04/12/2025 12:02

Throckmorton · 04/12/2025 11:36

What I want to know is why Solid's child, who is preteen by the sound of it, is so convinced they are a girl. Given that you can be a boy and can (eg) have long hair, wear dresses, and call yourself Emma, I am not seeing what the issue is. Unless of course Solid is telling her child that boys can't do those things and if you want to do those things you must be a girl...

Agree. I really respect Solid’s willingness to engage in discussion here, but I also think it’s chilling that she seemed to have decided to validated their very young child’s feelings that they are the opposite sex rather than telling their child that boys and girls can do pretty much anything, and their only difference is their bodies that cannot be changed. And that bodies matter. So they’re a boy and that cannot be changed but they can still like things that people steeped in outdated stereotypes might think are ‘girl’ things while still being a boy. That’s the kind thing to do.