Where are the trans men?

I don't recall saying that. I was responding to someone who said the trans men they knew went into coaching.

Firstly - transgender people are split roughly 50/50 between transgender women and transgender men.

Secondly - wtf has that got to do with the question I asked?

Nobody is shouting at you. I don't support anyone shouting at anyone.

I asked you why it was 'grim' for people to live their lives in such a way that they feel they're being true to their gender identity, when that gender identity is not concomitant with their sex. You come back with a comment about people shouting at women to 'shut up'. Do you know what demagoguery is? You're engaging in it in your posts on this subject, because you can't engage with the humanity of transgender people.

BTW - 'bigotry' means a person who is :obstinately attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group". You absolutely are antagonistic towards transgender women and anyone who supports them. Antagonistic to them as individuals BECAUSE they belong to a group. You ARE 'bigoted'.

No you are openly admitting you have an issue with men

Transmen exist in men's sport too. Transwomen in sport goes back to the 1970s BTW, it's not a new topic.

Using "pass" is fucking gross and misogynistic because it literally causes issues for biological women who don't fit the socially acceptable look of women. Actual, biological women have been harassed in toilets because they don't look "feminine" enough and have been accused of being men. But I'm only supporting men right?

You are the disgusting bigot, seeking to dismiss people's experiences and actively harming women...

Dear god the hyperbole!

I don't hate trans people. I just don't agree with their worldview.

I don't think the thing that is different between men and women is our minds.

I don't think pretending being female-bodied does not carry risks and social consequences so we don't need female only spaces and protections is fair on female people.

And I don't think it's reasonable that someone's self image as the opposite sex inside their own head should be taken as a truth in the world outside their own head, not when it starts to affect other people as well.

And the reason we don't hear the same issues around trans men is that in our society men have implicit privileges whereas women have explicit protections.

No one agrees that men can have privileges over women, it just happens because that is how we are socialised and how society is structured right now.

Whereas the protections for women are explicit - they were conscious decisions made within society and they are visible as a woman-only sign on the door or a woman-only event.

And because of that, trans women are able to go to whoever set that particular space or event up and challenge them in a way that trans men cannot do for male privileges. After all, trans men can't exactly appeal to the "Board of Patriachy" 😂 but joking aside, it is not a coincidence that the few male privileges that are explicitly written down, like the rules for inheriting a peerage, have been explicitly denied to trans men. (So the Board of Patriachy got a look in after all).

All this means that trans women's colonisation of female rights and protections is more visible, and has more serious repercussions, then trans men attempting to gain male privilege. And so that is where the attention has mostly been.

It's not because trans men are nicer because they are women. Some of the most toxic online voices are (young) trans men, and Stephen Whittle's clandestine backroom lobbying was hugely instrumental in undermining the democratic process. It's just that being women, as an overall group they have less power to throw around.

Trans man here. There's plenty of us about. Why you so obsessed with us? I even tricked a cis woman into marriage and regularly have sex with cis men. All the while standing with our trans sisters against unhinged fascists and looking handsome as we do it

Well, yes, as there is a tiny overlap in strength between men and women. Infinitesimal, but exists. And so you will, very rarely, meet a woman who is stronger or faster than a man.

Transpeople and their supporters aren't mainly men 🤣🤣🤣

The law still protects transpeople from discrimination as well btw

It’s utterly grim to shout at (mainly) women that we should shut up and put up with (mainly) men who have a trans ideology and should be accepted as the opposite sex. Then call people bigots if they don’t agree (which the law doesn’t). No one is saying men and women who “feel” like they are in the wrong body don’t exist. But feeling something isn’t being something. Being a sex isn’t a feeling.

I’m only bothered about males being in women’s spaces, regardless of how one identifies. I don’t really care if women try to get in with men, or take part in their sports, or their changing rooms. If men have a problem with it I’m sure they’ll say (they don’t for all the reasons stated). So I’m only concerned with people having blind support for transwomen. I didn’t say you ‘only’ cared about men but it’s this part that’s the problem.

You ignored all the valid concerns about males being in women’s sports, prisons and rape
counselling sessions, or women victims of male
violence (including sexual violence) not being able to have their own space away from biological males (they rarely pass FYI) in the name of a fucking ideology which - like religion - no one has to believe in if they don’t want to nor be compelled to do so, and to shout ‘hate’ for the billionth time.

Its fucking disgraceful and the very definition of bigotry.

I notice how I've highlighted some transmen who have succeeded over their "male" counterparts but still the argument is "transwomen are stealing from women and transmen don't"...

No, I'm pointing out the flaws in you saying I only support men when we are discussing Transmen here, which in your opinion are women...

Transwomen are fighting for their rights just like women have throughout history...

@DownWhichOfLate

"But they don’t. They want to pretend to be something they aren’t AND want validation from everyone else. Whilst (as another poster said): fuck women’s rights! Because as long as you make sure men get what they want then you are doing the right thing! So utterly grim."

What's 'utterly grim'? People having a gender identity that's not concomitant with their biological sex? Why? It's just something that people feel about themselves. In some people it's a persistent, life long feeling. You can say 'you're wrong to feel that way' but that's a bit pointless isn't it? People feel how they feel. They can't help it. Or is the 'So utterly grim' directed at the idea of people living their life in such a way as to accommodate their gender dysphoria - to live in a way that they feel is true to themselves?

A friend of mine has a son who was born female. He transitioned years ago and is happily living his life as a trangender man, in a stable relationship and with the support of his family. I'm going to guess you would say this is 'utterly grim'. In what sense is it 'grim'?

So you're saying that transmen are women. Which means I support those women too...

Yet you were claiming I only support men just.

See the problem?

And it is hateful and bigoted to tell people they aren't what they know they are and call them mentally ill

BTW the law doesn't say that transpeople don't exist. There are still protections for them in law. They can't be discriminated against on basis of being trans. It's also left people who've had surgery in an awkward position where they technically aren't allowed in the Male/Female toilets but their surgery means they wouldn't be accepted into the "correct" toilet either

You’re getting yourself confused now!

…men in whatever form… so you’re admitting transwomen are men now?

Trans identifying women are less of a nuisance, that’s why they get less focus.

I’ve got contempt for any male who transcends any boundary or space that negatively impacts women. I don’t care whether that male feels like they are the manliest man ever, or whether they feel like they are a woman - whatever the fuck that means as no one can ever properly explain what this entails other than relying on regressive sex stereotypes.

As seen by this thread, no one really cares what females (transmen) do as everyone knows they are female and don’t pose as much of a risk to men as much as men pose to females, and other men.

So no. It’s not like that.

They aren't pretending anything.

You're now chosing to ignore transmen, which on your view are women, and the fact that I support them too

Or do they count as Men because your hate is directed towards men in whatever form you can find them in???

You do EXACTLY what the far right do in relation to Asian men.

You find examples of awful transgressions by people who belong to this demographic. And you find examples of people not treating these transgressions in the way they should be treated - seriously, and with respect to the victims.

And you use this to justify your abject hatred and contempt for the entire group, even though deep down you must know that the vast majority of them, like the vast majority of Asian men, are people who are just trying to live their lives and aren't engaging in criminal behaviour.

There's a name for this. It's called demagoguery.

On MN it does. It's only ok to criticise stereotypes around women. You can call men all the things under the sun and lump them into one all you like

Actually, there's quite a lot of "women feel this" and speaking for all women too...

But they don’t. They want to pretend to be something they aren’t AND want validation from everyone else. Whilst (as another poster said): fuck women’s rights! Because as long as you make sure men get what they want then you are doing the right thing! So utterly grim.

You can’t really comment on logic.

Transmen are women.
Transwomen are men.

You can’t change sex. The law says so. Not living or going along with one’s pseudo reality doesn’t make one hateful or bigoted, that isn’t going to wash anymore.

Very strange as i mistakenly believed bring gender critical meant being critical of gender stereotyping. Naive of me ax that only goes one way it seems.

Transmen slip under the radar in my opinion, they still behave like woman and slowly integrate without being noticed - so don't make waves or upset the apple cart

whereas the other way round the transwoman continue to behave true to form and create waves and don't intergrate, thus causing friction and upset but not understanding why

thats my own interpretation of the two different sides of the coin, I might be wrong as its anecdotal

Women have pretty aggressively demanded their rights in the past...

It's MN

If you don't think all men are like that then you aren't "part of the sisterhood" and are wrong because all men are like that (even though it's actually a small number of men who are like that)

According to people on here Transmen are women, I accept them too so your logic fails on your bigoted description of people anyway

🤷‍♀️