If a patient requests same sex care and a doctor lies to them and performs intimate care, that should be a sex crime

do fear that the ever increasing demands on the NHS will bring it to breaking point if common sense doesn’t prevail.

The "common sense" that needs to prevail is patients and other staff not being required to validate the identity beliefs of men.

Would you think of asking the same sex doctor you’ve requested if they were a lesbian ? I doubt it.

Irrelevant, and missing the point.
Lesbians are not sexually aroused because they're men who dress and try to present as women.

Lesbians are women. Obviously.

We are talking about consent. What you consent to.

You can quote statistics all you like. What we’re actually saying here is that those women who don’t want a trans HCP examining them for fear of it being for their sexual gratification, don’t even consider that the female HCP could be a lesbian and getting exactly the same kicks. I agree that women are entitled to make an informed choice and that trans women HCP’s should never be provided where a female has been requested. But it’s ridiculous to assume that the only reason a trans woman would have trained as a doctor or other HCP was for access to womens bodies, without considering that it’s perfectly possible that that would also apply to a gay woman.

i’ve been in and out of hospital sll my life. Had more examinations, intimate and otherwise than l care to remember. Most of the doctors were male. The latest being a breast surgeon. Rubber gloves at all times, no hint of impropriety and a chaperone always in attendance without ha need to request one. I appreciate thats not the norm for everyone but l do fear that the ever increasing demands on the NHS will bring it to breaking point if common sense doesn’t prevail.

Agree

Lesbians are sexually attracted to women, autogynephiles are sexually aroused by dressing as women.

A man performing femininity, pretending to be a woman in order to carry out intimate examinations, should arouse suspicion. Especially one who doesn't understand biological reality.

I didn't say that all transwomen are doing it for sexual gratification, I asked if the man giving the examination was doing it for sexual gratification.

Not really answering the question though are you ? It’s hypothetical, as is a lot being discussed here. In an emergency, realistically NHS staff are not going to stand around and watch a patient die because the HCP on call is trans.

Which is utter nonsense. Would you think of asking the same sex doctor you’ve requested if they were a lesbian

98% of sex crimes are carried out by men. Not women.

At the heart of this, The Right Side of History seems to be all about centering the assailant and not the victim. The important things are the assailant's thoughts, feelings, identity, level of sexual excitement. We must even define the nature of the assault on this basis. Giving the assailant an astounding level of power, particularly considering that none of those apparently centrally vital things are independently verifiable and can only be based upon self-declaration at any instant of time.

But you’re not making the same point at all. This poster is saying that there is an almost universal assumption here that a trans woman HCP wpuld be carrying out the examination entirely for their own sexual gratification. Which is utter nonsense. Would you think of asking the same sex doctor you’ve requested if they were a lesbian ? I doubt it.

@Jollyhockeystickss it turns out if you go private you can't get a same sex doctor if you request one, either. Last year a woman was refused her treatment because she asked for same sex care (I think she was a sexual assault survivor). The hospital she was attending was private and she paid - she was told that her values did not align with those of the hospital and that she was transphobic and was not treated.
And anyway, if I was in A and E with two broken legs it would not matter to me who treated me. But if in hospital for an intimate examination, though I would not ask for a same sex HCP I would want a chaperone - indeed, I have never had to ask for a chaperone, one has always been in attendance, a biological woman. As you know lots of nurses you will understand that the chaperone is to protect both the patient AND the HCP.
I do not like or accept the terms 'cis' or 'non-trans' in reference to being a woman btw. There is only one type of woman - the sort that has body that could produce large gametes.

@Kucinghitam yes I believe it is a form of physical assault.

What exactly did that poster say?

@TheKeatingFive there is a poster currently alluding to it on this thread, and there has been at least one other to do the same.

That's the point I'm making. How does the woman know that the man giving her an intimate examination isn't sexually aroused by the subterfuge?

Not a single person is doing that, so all ok, huh?

A woman on the Sandie Peggie thread said that she was prevented by her surgery (the only one easily available to her in a rural area) from booking anyone but the man in a silk scarf claiming to be a woman for her smear test. So she doesn't want to have one.

@TheKeatingFive no I don't think you would be wrong to distrust a medical professional that lied to you.

I think it would be wrong to assume that a trans doctor is a sexual deviant based only on the fact that they are trans.

I do distrust a man who would not disclose to me his sex if I requested female only intimate care.

Do you think I am in the wrong here?

@username299 how am I to know? It isn't an assumption I would leap to.

Anecdotally and not pointed towards any particular posters on this thread or others like it, I have occasionally observed on this forum (at best) a general sense of distrust towards trans people, and (at worst) a belief that all trans people are inherently sexually deviant or carrying out some kind of sexual fetish, and by virtue of that, any care a trans person carried out would be in some way sexually motivated.

Can we not just cut to the chase here and agree that telling lies about practitioners sex in these sorts of situations is obviously wrong.

God knows how we got ourselves here, but enough. Let's see a return to basic respect for reality and honest interactions.

unnecessary intimate procedures/examinations have been carried out

I would say that in the OP's scenario - patient requests same sex care, provider says "yes sure" but then sends opposite-sex practitioner who either disguises their sex and/or tells patient they are same-sex - it is quite unnecessary for the male practitioner to deceive or intimidate a patient who has requested intimate care from a female practitioner.

I think it's fairly well known that sexual assault is not so much about sexual gratification as it is about power.

In this case the route to the power is not violence, or coercive control, but deception.

It's all about the power, especially for this man.

@Kucinghitam no because women (and men/children) have had their experiences of medical care determined to be sexual assault, where external factors evidence the sexual nature of the care I.e unnecessary intimate procedures/examinations have been carried out, personal recordings made etc.

Unfortunately, with most of these cases doctors are only caught out after a pattern of behaviour emerges, meaning that by the time it comes to light, there are already many victims.

@heroinechic Is the man pretending to be a woman doing it for fetishistic reasons? Some men are sexually aroused by performing femininity.