Page 10 | If a patient requests same sex care and a doctor lies to them and performs intimate care, that should be a sex crime

SernieBanders · 2025-02-14T08:00:34+00:00

as a general principle everyone should be offered same sex doctors and nurses and carers for intimate care and anyone who lies or omits the truth about their real sex should be prosecuted. do you agree?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/02/2025 09:47

Treatment without informed consent can be an assault or battery already. Clearly it depends on circumstances, you can’t obtain informed consent from an unconscious person.

However, if a patient has stated that they only want same sex care then they haven’t consented to a person of the opposite sex treating them no matter how they identify.

CheekySnake · 14/02/2025 09:47

heroinechic · 14/02/2025 08:46

I'm probably going to be up against it here but I don't see what sexual offence this would fall under. Assault by penetration, sexual assault etc require an element of sexual touching/sexual penetration.

Medical procedures are not ordinarily considered to involve sexual touching/penetration (although of course they can and have been!)

You would have to establish that this was a sexual experience for the trans woman/man, simply on the basis that they are trans, and regardless of their sexual orientation. I.e trans people are unable to perform intimate medical procedures on either sex. This also plays into the 'all trans people are acting out a fetish' umbrella of transphobia.

I appreciate the informed consent argument, but it's not sufficient to fulfil just one element of an offence to have been said to have committed it.

It would be much better IMO if the NHS insisted on a sex based assessment (rather than gender) when it came to patient requests to protect their dignity.

Why would you have to establish that there was a sexual element to a male doc inserting his fingers into your vagina/rectum/touching your breasts when you had specifically said you wanted a female medic in order for it to be assault?

And how can you prove that there wasn't a sexual element?

Shodan · 14/02/2025 09:47

Surely a crucial part of wanting to be examined by someone of the same natal sex as oneself is that you then know that they, as the owner of the same type of body as you, have an inherent knowledge of how that body works and feels?

I can say as much as I like that I know how it feels to be kicked in the balls, because I have a good imagination. But I don't know, because I don't have the type of body that has balls. I can only pretend to know.

In the same way, only a natal woman can know how it feels to be violated (raped, eg) by a man.

Two things should have absolute transparency:
1 Are they an actual doctor (or nurse, or whatever)
2 Are they male or female

Anything else is wilful deception, and should be treated as such.

ValerieDoonican · 14/02/2025 09:45

And yes I get that it's noot always possible in an emergency etc...But to not reveal that you are the category of person that has never had a vagina and still proceed knowing my preferences is a horrible creepy assault in my view. I cannot get away from why?? would he want to do this, when it cannot in any way be for the patient's benefit, and might be to their considerable, even permanent detriment. Are they going to fear even women HCPs going forward after the deception is unmasked?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/02/2025 09:42

MrsPeregrine · 14/02/2025 09:40

How sad that 20% of voters disagree with you. Has it really come to this? Whatever happened to bodily autonomy?

They perhaps agree it shouldn’t be allowed but not go so far as for it to be a crime.

Original poster

SernieBanders · 14/02/2025 09:40

healthybychristmas · 14/02/2025 09:36

It's making me think of my mum who's in a care home. She was insistent she wanted same sex care for her personal needs and chose that nursing home because that's what they promised. There's the additional problem that her eyesight is very poor. She would be very very upset to have somebody like this helping her in the bathroom or get dressed. It's a complete violation.

Absolutely

which just shows that the "you can just tell" argument is a poor one to excuse this

Some people are old, confused and they deserve autonomy and respect

OP posts:

MrsPeregrine · 14/02/2025 09:40

How sad that 20% of voters disagree with you. Has it really come to this? Whatever happened to bodily autonomy?

Chersfrozenface · 14/02/2025 09:39

CherryPopShowerGel · 14/02/2025 09:28

I think you've misunderstood. There is no 'right' to same sex care, only to express a preference.

https://www.royalberkshire.nhs.uk/media/gb4pxjda/requesting-same-sex-health-care-professionals_sep23.pdf

"We understand that some patients may prefer to see or be treated by a healthcare professional of a specific gender. There is no statutory requirement for the NHS to provide a healthcare professional of a particular gender in any healthcare setting. Under the NHS Act 1990, we have a duty to provide a proper standard of care to all our patients. The Act does not state that care needs to be deliver care by a particular person of a particular gender. You may make a request to see or be treated by a specific gender of healthcare professional. Our ability to respond to your request will be considered on an individual basis. However, it will be dependent on circumstances such as levels of staffing and the needs of other patients. Our prime aim will always be to provide a high standard of care to you. Please be aware that insisting on care or treatment from a healthcare professional of a specific gender may result in delays to your care. While the Trust endeavours to make alternative arrangements based on your request, it may not be possible to allocate a healthcare professional of the required gender."

It's okay, lots of people get this wrong.

Show quote history

Where does it mention same sex care in the Royal Berks document?

FuzzyGreenAlien · 14/02/2025 09:39

I agree.

I have had intimate examinations performed by male staff, with a chaperone (to be honest, without a chaperone too, which didn't occur to me till afterwards). But the key fact is that I was aware of all the facts and therefore could make informed consent.

The deception is the problem.

ValerieDoonican · 14/02/2025 09:39

Arseynal · 14/02/2025 08:21

There is a world of difference between “I’m sorry, there isn’t a female doctor on duty right now, would you like to see the male doctor with a female chaperone?” or “I can make you an appointment with a female doctor but the next available one isn’t until July” and telling a patient they can see a female doctor and sending in a man. Especially when the man is challenged and says “I am a biological female” when they aren’t. Consent still matters, even when the service is stretched and consent obtained by deception is not consent at all.

Abso-fucking-lutely!!!

I want the HCP putting something into my vagina to have a vagina herself.

Hoardasurass · 14/02/2025 09:38

SernieBanders · 14/02/2025 08:01

Triggered by the recent court case

”Upton also told the court that he would not proactively disclose his transgender status to a patient. He considers it a ‘private matter’ akin to ‘my medical history, my sexual orientation, my place of residence, my age’. If a patient were to request to see a female doctor, he said he would have no qualms ignoring their wishes, as he considers himself a woman. It would be up to the patient, he said, to make a request for a different doctor. That a sick and vulnerable person might not feel able to stand up to him didn’t seem to register as important.”

https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/02/12/calling-yourself-a-woman-does-not-make-you-biologically-female/

Edited

Unless the dr has informed consent its abh if they touch you and sexual assault by penetration if they do an internal examination.
The problem is getting the police to act on it

DalzielOrNoDalzielAndDontPascoe · 14/02/2025 09:38

Where does this principle actually end - if how somebody identifies is presumed to override verifiable fact?

Can I commit any crimes that I want to and get away with it when I officially identify as not guilty? Would that make any judge insisting on the contrary - maybe pointing to the 4K CCTV footage of me clearly robbing the bank and then paying £5million into my own account there immediately afterwards - a phobic, prejudiced hater for denying my own 'real' identity as an innocent person?

Yes, it's obviously absurd - but both of these scenarios are firmly on the same ladder of absurdity; I don't see how anybody could honestly, logically accept one of them but not the other.

BorgQueen · 14/02/2025 09:38

My late FiL had a female Nurse/carer coming in who called herself by a Male name and had facial hair, if he’d said he was only happy with Male carers I would have complained but tbh, I think he was too far gone to notice.
It always seemed to be a Male Nurse who saw to his catheter though.
Sex deceivers are dangerous, they obviously have no trouble lying to others.
Upton is a disgrace, the bastard child of Class privilege and Gender ideology.

Original poster

SernieBanders · 14/02/2025 09:37

CherryPopShowerGel · 14/02/2025 09:28

I think you've misunderstood. There is no 'right' to same sex care, only to express a preference.

https://www.royalberkshire.nhs.uk/media/gb4pxjda/requesting-same-sex-health-care-professionals_sep23.pdf

"We understand that some patients may prefer to see or be treated by a healthcare professional of a specific gender. There is no statutory requirement for the NHS to provide a healthcare professional of a particular gender in any healthcare setting. Under the NHS Act 1990, we have a duty to provide a proper standard of care to all our patients. The Act does not state that care needs to be deliver care by a particular person of a particular gender. You may make a request to see or be treated by a specific gender of healthcare professional. Our ability to respond to your request will be considered on an individual basis. However, it will be dependent on circumstances such as levels of staffing and the needs of other patients. Our prime aim will always be to provide a high standard of care to you. Please be aware that insisting on care or treatment from a healthcare professional of a specific gender may result in delays to your care. While the Trust endeavours to make alternative arrangements based on your request, it may not be possible to allocate a healthcare professional of the required gender."

It's okay, lots of people get this wrong.

Show quote history

You're missing off the essential parts - it's deception. No ifs no buts its deception

Patients have the right to express a preference AND REFUSE CARE if they wish

It's always, ALWAYS deception if a patient says they want same sex care, the doctor says yes, but is actually THE OPPOSITE SEX

thats a lie, a sex crime and should be prosecuted

OP posts:

Projectme · 14/02/2025 09:37

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/02/2025 09:36

It's astonishing that anyone would think that it's a reasonable thing to do to gaslight someone when they have explicitly asked for someone of the female sex.

On what planet would the doctor's feelings take priority over the bodily privacy and dignity of a patient?!?!

Our planet apparently...if you follow Dr U's description of himself...🙄

healthybychristmas · 14/02/2025 09:36

It's making me think of my mum who's in a care home. She was insistent she wanted same sex care for her personal needs and chose that nursing home because that's what they promised. There's the additional problem that her eyesight is very poor. She would be very very upset to have somebody like this helping her in the bathroom or get dressed. It's a complete violation.

Upstartled · 14/02/2025 09:36

Telling a woman that her request for same sex care is achievable and then sending in Derek with a wig on cannot be ethical or meet any definition of medical consent.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/02/2025 09:36

It's astonishing that anyone would think that it's a reasonable thing to do to gaslight someone when they have explicitly asked for someone of the female sex.

On what planet would the doctor's feelings take priority over the bodily privacy and dignity of a patient?!?!

AmusedOpalShaker · 14/02/2025 09:35

Of course.

No informed consent.

Househunter2025 · 14/02/2025 09:35

CherryPopShowerGel · 14/02/2025 09:18

It isn't always possible to pick and choose your clinician, patients have a right to express a preference and a right to decline care if their preference can't be met. It isn't possible for every healthcare setting to conjure up equal numbers of male and female clinicians to ensure everyone who has a preference gets what they want.

For example in labour we had a male midwife, he was fantastic and I had absolutely no preference either way, but if I'd have said no, I'm not having you, that doesn't mean a female midwife would have magically become available, and I'd have been shooting myself in the foot to decline medical care.

Interestingly patients tend to express preferences for things like GPs and nurses, but when it comes to intimate surgeries or examinations they are suddenly fine with a male consultant.

Lots of people misunderstand and believe patients have a right to their preference being accommodated. They don't as it's not possible for the NHS to promise they can fulfil that preference.

There are also plenty of people that really couldn't care less what's going on in the pants of the professional trying to help them, I'd say that's the norm.

In scenarios where we're considering trans clinicians then I think if someone asks for a woman clinician and the clinician available/assigned is a trans woman then that is something that should be explored with the patient. Is it important to you that they are a woman, or that their sex is female? If it's possible to fulfil their preference that they want a female/cis woman then great, if not, it's just the same as explaining there isn't one available so here are your choices: have the care delivered by a trans woman, or you will need to wait or find another place to carry out the procedure if there isn't anyone on staff that fits that person's preferences.

The NHS has plenty of trans clinicians that navigate this stuff day in day out.

The issue is nothing to do with whether the preferred sex of clinician is available. It's to do with the patient being informed. If I request a female and the only one available is a trans woman, I expect to be informed and given a chaperone. I do not expect to be given a male doctor with long hair and earrings without being informed.

Plenty of patients don't care either way. Personally I don't care as long as there's a chaperone if it's a male. So I can't imagine it's that difficult to manage in practice. But it's the dishonesty that's the problem, not the existence of trans doctors.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 14/02/2025 09:34

SernieBanders · 14/02/2025 08:05

The deception is the point here, not NHS funding. It might be a private care home, or BUPA, or anywhere. The key thing is the omission of a key fact, the deception.

Show quote history

Yes, and I fully agree with you @SernieBanders

Men who claim to be women should not be permitted to treat those vulnerable patients who have requested that only women treat them, unless it is an emergency.

It's not right. I know that there are not always women doctors and nurses available, but if there are, then patients' wishes should be respected.

petesdragfrom · 14/02/2025 09:34

I completely agree OP.

HoldingTheDoor · 14/02/2025 09:33

I don’t understand the point of all the “What if it’s an emergency?” posts.

I’d be traumatised and horrified if right now , someone came along, threw me on the ground, put their mouth to mine, blew air down my throat and began pumping my chest up and down with enough force to break my ribs but in an emergency I might be very grateful for it. That doesn’t make it a good benchmark for what I would and should tolerate on a normal day.

Naunet · 14/02/2025 09:32

CherryPopShowerGel · 14/02/2025 09:28

I think you've misunderstood. There is no 'right' to same sex care, only to express a preference.

https://www.royalberkshire.nhs.uk/media/gb4pxjda/requesting-same-sex-health-care-professionals_sep23.pdf

"We understand that some patients may prefer to see or be treated by a healthcare professional of a specific gender. There is no statutory requirement for the NHS to provide a healthcare professional of a particular gender in any healthcare setting. Under the NHS Act 1990, we have a duty to provide a proper standard of care to all our patients. The Act does not state that care needs to be deliver care by a particular person of a particular gender. You may make a request to see or be treated by a specific gender of healthcare professional. Our ability to respond to your request will be considered on an individual basis. However, it will be dependent on circumstances such as levels of staffing and the needs of other patients. Our prime aim will always be to provide a high standard of care to you. Please be aware that insisting on care or treatment from a healthcare professional of a specific gender may result in delays to your care. While the Trust endeavours to make alternative arrangements based on your request, it may not be possible to allocate a healthcare professional of the required gender."

It's okay, lots of people get this wrong.

Show quote history

Of course it's her right, because she can refuse treatment if they're unable to provide female care. It's not all about what the NHS can provide but about a person's free will to consent or not.

MidnightPatrol · 14/02/2025 09:29

It’s deception isn’t it. So yes.

It’s very different to them saying ‘a female doctor is not available, so you will need to be examined by a male doctor’.

I have to say - I have n occasion asked for a female doctor / nurse and they have never been able to provide it. Which I feel is a bit of a failure really.